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| Youth Free/Greco qualifier | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 24 2017, 08:07 AM (3,671 Views) | |
| wrstlr | Apr 24 2017, 08:07 AM Post #1 |
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I have a question to ask...Is it normal for youth freestyle and greco tournaments to ask for volunteers to run their tournament? I was at the Forest Lake youth freestyle and greco state qualifier this past weekend. They said on both days of the tournament that the tournament could not start until they get enough volunteers to run the tables and ref the matches. Now my sons (one in HS and one in 2nd gr) do most of their wrestling in WI, but the tournaments have included a fair amount of freestyle, folkstyle and greco. I have never seen where a tournament says that they won't be starting until they get enough volunteers from the crowd to make it run. My second question is who gets the money from the entry fees? At $12 per style per wrestler, someone is making a lot of money and especially if they're not paying the workers anything. I also have a difficult time thinking that the state qualifiers are truly a representation of who should be there when there are high schoolers that are reffing the matches, doing the best they can by the way, running off right after their reffed match to quickly wrestle and come right back to continue reffing. It all seemed very disorganized and put together at the last minute. It was pretty disappointing to see this kind of attention to detail by MN/USA for a state qualifier tournament. |
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| NoQuit | Apr 24 2017, 10:16 AM Post #2 |
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Part of the MN/USA freestyle and Greco process is that participating clubs will provide table workers and officials. Generally MN/USA has the officials covered but given that junior state was the same weekend the officials were spread very thin. As far as the high school kids officiating this is the way almost every folkstyle tournament is run and I can personally attest that those kids working this weekend have a great grasp on the rules, considering the numerous changes over the years many people are afraid to step up and help out, but they did and did a great job. Having a kid leave to wrestle and come back to officiate should not be a negative, we are here working to help promote the sport. And everyone is always more than willing to take your help going forward, always looking for volunteers!
Edited by NoQuit, Apr 24 2017, 10:22 AM.
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| Tiny Tornado | Apr 24 2017, 11:26 AM Post #3 |
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Tiny Tornado
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There was also another qualifier this weekend as well; Moorehead was running a combo tournament, so there were also a few mat and pairing officials at that one. Regarding the entry fees; only a portion of the entry fee is kept by the host club- (the rest is sent to Mn/Usa wrestling, it's X amt per wrestler....) and nobody gets PAID to help run a tournament, other than maybe a free hotdog and can of pop..... it's volunteers, and if there's not enough of them, then each tournament has to do what they can to get started and finish on time.... B) Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 24 2017, 11:28 AM.
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| DOUG | Apr 24 2017, 12:12 PM Post #4 |
Wrestling Fan
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First of all I think Forest Lake did outstanding job this weekend my question is why would MN/USA get a dime other than the card fees if someone bought it on site. In my opinion Forest lake did all the work they should get the reward and now if they would want to donate a amount to clubs like ( JJ Trained and South St Paul they are the two Clubs that ran the table I was at most of the day and did outstanding) for helping that would be awesome and people would be more willing to run a table. Now think about this Club A goes to four tournament runs a table at each tournament host club donate 50.00 to that Club at the end of the Season Club A has 200 Dollars towards whatever. Again I love the Greco Free Style Season and I think it is awesome the Clubs that step up and host tournaments and I will pay at the door and help out wherever. I just think in order to help the sport grow we have to be willing to explore new thoughts and ideas. |
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| Karenj1225 | Apr 24 2017, 12:53 PM Post #5 |
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Wasn't Jr State this weekend too? That's spreading the volunteers pretty thin. |
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| wrstlr | Apr 24 2017, 01:18 PM Post #6 |
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I'm all for expanding the sport and I think that the high schoolers for the most part did an excellent job. I'm certainly not criticizing them. I also understand that Junior Greco was this weekend and many of the refs may have been taken up by that, but I think that schools that select the same weekend to host their tournament and need volunteers should look at that and consider another weekend to host. I just felt that it was unfair to the parents that volunteered to run a table when their son or daughter was wrestling, had to leave their table with often times no one to run it. Also for the high schoolers having to hear their name called over the loud speaker while reffing and knowing they were up, having no time to warm up, go and wrestle and come back in a very short amount of time. I've scheduled and helped in running many youth tournaments and have never looked for volunteers the day of to make the tournament run. |
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| NoQuit | Apr 24 2017, 01:41 PM Post #7 |
Wrestling Fan
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Well the way I see it there are basically 2 options given that Junior State is held this weekend. Option 1 is skip the tournament given the fact that a majority of the refs will be at State, Option 2 is get additional volunteers (I say additional because all the regular refs are also volunteers) and hold the tournament as Forest Lake did. I for one am more inclined for option 2 as this actually creates more opportunities to wrestle. Parents working a table would have the opportunity to go and watch their child wrestle, yes this may cause the mat to be held up a few minutes but again this is better than no tournament at all. I volunteered to ref for the day and missed most of my child's matches, but I did so knowing I was helping provide an opportunity for the kids as a whole to compete. The numbers and knowledge in freestyle and Greco simply is not on par with folkstyle, rarely if ever do you see a club ask for help running a folkstyle tournament but that is because there are better participation numbers and a better understanding, however as previously stated we still usually have high school refs. In the ideal setting we could get ample certified referees and paid table workers, etc. but the fact is the money simply is not there. MN/USA wrestling is a volunteer organization and the clubs agreeing to host these tournaments will need help from volunteers which is why the policy is in place - this is not isolated to the Forest Lake tournament only, it applies to each freestyle and Greco tournament held in MN. I understand your frustrations but given the circumstances it really comes down to the previous two options and as I previously stated it is my opinion that we should try and grow the sport and create more opportunities, even if that means we ask some parents who may not want to help out to do so! Edited by NoQuit, Apr 24 2017, 01:47 PM.
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| CropDuster | Apr 24 2017, 03:47 PM Post #8 |
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It's also hard when lots of club want to host tournaments (Awesome) and there's only so few weekends to host/compete (not so awesome). Would there be a market for post-Northern Plains/Duals-time FS/GR tournaments? That's a big, important question. Otherwise, for the kids that aren't on Duals teams, you basically have from the third weekend in May until July to train without a competition. |
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| huntfishwrestle | Apr 24 2017, 07:01 PM Post #9 |
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What if a club had enough money and wanted to donate to pay for tableworkers? I have run plenty of tourneys, most of which we break even and run for the love of the sport, and I have never asked for volunteers from the crowd. That is odd and kind of annoying. Let's say a family brings 2 kids, thats $50 to get in plus driving, hotel, food, etc. Now you want them to work a table as well? Not right. |
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| Tiny Tornado | Apr 24 2017, 10:04 PM Post #10 |
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what sense does that make ? Clubs dont run tournaments to be helpful to others- they run them as fundraisers...if they didnt need the money, there'd be no tourney in the first place...also .very few families go so far enough away that a hotel is involved.... what needs to happen, and I'll try to put this as politely as I can....there are huge masses of people who have for years been enjoying these tournaments and never once helping- they need to start stepping up for their club, and learning how to pitch in. It's the way it's always been done, but it's just getting harder and harder, as there are more tournaments, and less volunteers, and less of the old traditions are being passed along thru the clubs as there used to be.... I do pairing because I love to do it, don't get me wrong. But it's a fact that the majority of every freestyle/greco season, we never have enough volunteers and the season is very short to begin with- so saying "pick another weekend", that doesnt work.....asking people to volunteer as a tableworker is just a normal thing, to me....i find it odd that anyone would question it. But i guess I'm just really old :$ , as in, old-school. Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 24 2017, 10:24 PM.
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| Tiny Tornado | Apr 24 2017, 10:20 PM Post #11 |
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DOUG, the answer to your question about the $$ is, when tournaments are sanctioned (INSURED) the host club pays a sanction fee to Mn/Usa Wrestling. Then at tournaments for every 12.00 collected per wrestler, several dollars per wrestler also goes to Mn/Usa Wrestling. It's part of the agreement when you host a tournament. The host club will make most of their money on 1) concessions and 2) entry fees at the door... Paying people to do a job thats always been handled by volunteers is a slippery slope--- there's no going back. :ermm: |
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| storm | Apr 24 2017, 10:52 PM Post #12 |
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I understand the point you are trying to make, however in my youth wrestling days I can think of maybe three tournaments a year where we DIDN'T have to stay in a hotel. It may be true that the kids down south don't have to travel to find matches but up where we are from it is very common to have to get a hotel and then wake up early for weigh ins the next morning. Kind of off topic, but hotel costs ARE something to consider. On topic, I would argue that if a program is running a tournament as a fundraiser for their program then the parents and high school wrestlers from that program should be responsible for providing refs and table workers. That is what we always did and it always seemed to work out. |
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| huntfishwrestle | Apr 25 2017, 08:11 AM Post #13 |
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I respect your opinion, but still disagree. I love MNUSA and Freestyle and Greco. If we want it to grow we can't continue to beg for volunteers from the crowd and start an hour late at times. That is a bad way to introduce people to our great sport. I understand the premise of volunteers, and get that all the money MNUSA makes goes to a lot of great places, but my ultimate goal is the sport itself and doing a better job with tourneys would help. So back to my original question: Can a club donate money to a tourney so they can start on time and pay volunteers to run tables? We would do it. Other's might as well. How many wrestlers were at Forest Lake? |
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| wrstlr | Apr 25 2017, 08:21 AM Post #14 |
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Volunteers and other non paid helpers are what makes wrestling clubs work. There is no way around that. I do find it odd that a tournament would let everyone pay their entry fee, buy concessions and pay spectator fees and then say..."If we don't get enough volunteers from the crowd, this tournament won't start on time." So now it's on the spectators to give up more of their time to make sure that the tournament runs smoothly? I give a lot of my time for my own club to make our tournament run smoothly. I would think that if a community is hosting a state qualifier then they should find the people from their own community to make it run smoothly, or make an executive decision to say that because we don't have the community or club support I'm sorry but we can't have a tournament. Which would be too bad because of what was brought up before...We're all doing this to grow the sport. |
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| larson311 | Apr 25 2017, 08:22 AM Post #15 |
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Fantastic
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We went to Grand Forks on Saturday and they had Jamestown University doing the reffring. They took classes a few weeks ago in Minneapolis I believe. There was maybe 1 or 2 HS refs. That would be a good option for some clubs to consider if they are short on volunteers, they did a nice job. |
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| Tiny Tornado | Apr 25 2017, 08:57 AM Post #16 |
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I totally agree with most of what youre saying, and I understand and agree that it would be great if this wasn't necessary- so I can mostly agree, except for one thing; that it was "odd" that F Lake did this- I don't know where you folks have been going to tournaments, or maybe I hear the announcements sooner, being at the head table. But what F Lake did is already the NORM, and has been for years....I cannot remember the last tournament that I've been to, that did NOT have to make that statement (probably Jr State, because it's all set up that the Auggie wrestlers run the tables) . Anyone remember Bill Maresh from Chsmplin Park ? He would call people OUT-- "hey, Anoka, where's your table ? Youve got enough guys here to run 2 tables today"....Hey Coon Rap- oh, never mind, Coon Rapids is just sitting down over there, thanks guys !".... and so on, until everyone was in position. You called them "spectators"....I see your point, as they had to pay admission to get in. I guess I just am so old-school, it's just hard to fathom how much things have changed...but I can't go on anymore about the way it "used to be" because frankly, nobody cares.... :-/ One more point; nd then I'll let someone else add- if your club wants to start paying people to do volunteer work, (that is SUPPOSED to be shared, by all who attend, IMO) then what happens down the road, when the next club who CANNOT pay people, needs to ask for help, and because nobody is paying them, it doesnt happen and nobody helps...Not your problem ? I say it is, I think it's ALL of our problem, I'd like to think we are sort of all in this together ) and I hope nobody goes there.... ^o) Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 25 2017, 08:59 AM.
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| Tiny Tornado | Apr 25 2017, 09:18 AM Post #17 |
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Tiny Tornado
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"THE NORM" ....how to prepare for your upcoming Freestyle Tournament" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Set up a date- check with AD of the High School Contact Mn/Usa and get date on Calendar Send in Sanction Fee Double check with the AD (remember what happened that one year ?) Get scale calibrated order trophies double check paper supply- make sure you have all nec colors purchase new red/black sharpies, black ink pens, 2 new pkgs pencils, staples- have first meeting after practice with club members and parents, start sign-up sheet- contact region director from Region 5, sk for assistance in getting volunteers lined up visit area businesses, get gift certificates to give to mat officials after tournament' Call and arrange for a trainer Call the HS- check with the AD one last time 2nd meeting with club parents- how many pairing officials, how many ref's ? Set up Coaches/Referee Clinic with rep from Mn/Usa Invite all the rest of the clubs from Region 5 Each night during practice, begin inviting the parents into the backroom to go over pairing, so they can help and can also read a bracket- begin calling the other clubs to arange/ask for number of volunteers- how many ref's, how many pairers will be coming from area clubs ? and just as important, how many table workers ? week before: double check with trainer, make sure theyve got you down meeting with club parents; need to set up the night before, move mats, set up hospitality room for visiting coaches/pairers/refs....' make signs, directing everyone to weighin's go to bank- get plenty of petty cash for the front door and for concessions purchase concession supplies, get them set up at the school Day of tournament: double check with school janitor, make sure all is goung well and someone IS going to plug in that huge kettle of coffee at 6 am..... start accepting wrestlers/parents/coaches at the door... tape list to the table at the front door for volunteer sign-up... OOPs ! totally forgot to line up an announcer ! Start tournament- run tournament- walk around and be sure ALL volunteer tableowrkers that are helping are getting their free lunch ticket, bottles of water, and a dish of candy- hand out gift cards to ref's/pairiers and tell them THANK YOU ! Count money- pay the announcer - pay the trainer- pay the school janitor- clean it up, put it all away for next year... send in registration fee portion for each wrestler to Mn/Usa Wrestling... have final meeting with club parents to discuss if/how much $ made, things to do better next time, etc..... before going to be- read the guillotine forum, to see if there were any negative comments about your tournament, ..... and THAT, my friends, is what I'm used to, and the way I was trained to do it. The State was divided into regions and the region directors had reponsiblities like setting up pairing clinics, referree /coaching clinics, to get everybody on board with the rules, etc...they also were responsible to contact all the Clubs, and asking that when their Club showed up at the neighboring schools tournament, that they would be bring X amt of help, depending on the amount of wrestlers that they were bringing....their final responsibility was setting up volunteers for the State Tournament - so, this old way wasn't better- but how do you change back to that, woithout having to offer $$ ? I truly don't know.... Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 25 2017, 09:30 AM.
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| huntfishwrestle | Apr 25 2017, 09:32 AM Post #18 |
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Let me ask this question a different way: Can the teams who don't have to get hotel rooms, drive 3-4 hours, be the ones to step up? And us "out state" clubs pay them for their services? And then at DL, MHD, etc the northern teams return the favor? Just because that's the way its always been done doesn't mean it's the right way. I'm trying to find an equitable solution here. Not being rude. I think the current way is bad PR for new clubs and families. Just my opinion though. Edited by huntfishwrestle, Apr 25 2017, 09:34 AM.
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| NoQuit | Apr 25 2017, 09:40 AM Post #19 |
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I am asking this as a serious question to those of you who say that the asking of volunteers for the freestyle/Greco tournaments is odd and not the way it usually is handled...what freestyle/greco tournaments are done any differently? I have been helping for many years and every tournament has the same format. In the past 5 years I have not been to a freestyle or Greco tournament where this request has not been made. This year the same announcement has been made at Eastview, Apple Valley, St. Francis and Forest Lake. I am betting I hear it at Simley this weekend as well. The folkstyle season is vastly different and running those tournaments is much easier. While there may be many clubs vying to hold a tournament during the folkstyle season that just is not the case for freestyle and Greco and without volunteers from the wrestling community, these types of opportunities simply will not be available. |
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| NoQuit | Apr 25 2017, 09:44 AM Post #20 |
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I think your views are rather interesting and offer some great insight. I have simply been trying to counter the fact that Forest Lake, Apple Valley, St. Francis and the clubs that have hosted and requested volunteers are doing what they can, and if people who say that if they can't run it all themselves then they shouldn't have a tournament will be eliminating opportunities. That does not mean that there may not be other ways to go about it as you suggest, and I thing that dialogue is great! |
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| Tiny Tornado | Apr 25 2017, 09:47 AM Post #21 |
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you have never been rude. I consider this a respectful discussion, where we are just talking things out- I'm not right, and youre not wrong. Just a difference of opinion. If every club would just let their new members know at the get-go, that when you take your kids to tournaments, you WILL be asked, and you WILL be expected to help- there'd be no problem, But- it stopped getting passed down. It stopped being expressed as something necessary, so it stopped being taught...so now, it's considered "odd" or wrong, to ask for help. I don't care for that. And I WISH very much that the clubs down here, would do a better job of showing up for your tournaments up north... |
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| huntfishwrestle | Apr 25 2017, 10:16 AM Post #22 |
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Fantastic
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Good points. We have no problem getting volunteers at tourneys when they are 30-60 miles away. It is tough when they are 200-300 miles away though! Good example, this weekend we hope to bring 8-12 guys down to Simley with 2 coaches, no extras. Hard to volunteer then. Hence the paying extra idea. Good discussion! |
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| Junior26 | Apr 28 2017, 06:01 AM Post #23 |
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Couple of points I feel may help this conversation: 1. There is a difference between "asking" for volunteers and "demanding" them. 2. "That is the way it has always been" is the death of many things. We say we want new people in the sport but do our actions back our words? 3. "Every tournament is run this way" is much like #2 but I feel worth restating. Is this true? In my experience I have found there are very few examples of "everything" being done the same way in ANYTHING. Most of the time that just means the majority are done in that way. Is there a better solution? Are we ignoring it because we believe this is the only way to handle something? Are we trying out new things to develop something better? Just a few thoughts from my morning coffee mug. |
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| RANCAN | Apr 30 2017, 09:06 AM Post #24 |
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Maybe Stillwater should run a Greco Freestyle Qualifier and show everyone how to do it. |
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| Junior26 | May 1 2017, 05:56 AM Post #25 |
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Im sorry if you thought my post meant I have all the answers, that was not how it was intended. I reread my post to make sure it was not stated that I have any idea of "how to do it", let alone all the answers. I didn't see it, so I will stick by what I said. Our FS/Greco program doubled in size this year from last year. If we continue on a nice growth path, we will have to take a look at how we can continue to help the sport grow as a whole. |
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| DOUG | May 1 2017, 09:34 AM Post #26 |
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I just want to say I think Simley did a great job this weekend. Good Refs and everything ran as smooth as I would expect it. Just one thought I had cause I heard this comment again this weekend from parent that was complaining about the Referee "come on you should know the rules it is a state Qualifier" What if we just loss that term from Freestyle also and treated the Kids Freestyle the same as Greco. Do you think it would hurt participation in the tournaments ? I am not saying it would stop people from complaining and I understand that the rules change it is just a thought I had this weekend |
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| DOUG | May 7 2017, 06:32 PM Post #27 |
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This year I went to Tournaments in Jackson, St Francis, Forest Lake, Simley and Owantana. First off I am thankful for all the clubs that host tournaments my son really enjoys wrestling and this way he gets more matches and I think that is awesome. The five tournaments that we went to this year all asked for volunteers and or refs ( Jackson did not ask for refs) I really feel the biggest difference between a good tournament and a great tournament is that the tournaments that were great definitely had one leader that was calling the shots and everyone else agreed with them. My recommendation as a customer to clubs hosting tournaments agree on one person to be in charge it will help the tournament run smoother. Once again thank you all for hosting the tournaments and we will be at all five again next year if my son wants to. Edited by DOUG, May 7 2017, 06:33 PM.
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| J Latterell | May 14 2017, 06:01 PM Post #28 |
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I began officiating 6 years ago or so under the same circumstances. My son also refs and wrestles. I have missed matches, he might have won a few more if he wasn't officiating, but we are better people for having done it this way. I would never have started officiating had it not been for that tournament in Eastview being short refs that day. I heard this weekend that no state has more mat officials at nationals than Minnesota and we are a very high quality crew of guys. Last I checked our wrestlers are pretty darn good too. I hope my efforts contribute to that. |
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| J Latterell | May 14 2017, 06:03 PM Post #29 |
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I am also pretty sure that Minnesota has more tournaments than most other states and our participation numbers are far higher as well. |
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| kidwrestlingcoach | May 15 2017, 11:41 AM Post #30 |
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Since one rarely hears praise for our officials. Tom Kuisle did one of the slickest moves I have ever watched during a match. On mat 12 weight 126 in cadet freestyle he stepped in front of situation that was almost certain to injure a wrestler and blew the whistle to bring both kids to their feet. It's in the first 25 seconds of the match and in no way affected the out come, other than one kid didn't have to have his knee rebuilt. I was super impressed and didn't catch Tom to tell him so in person. Safety is job one for youth and high school in my book. Nice job Tom! |
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