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Mn Usa Freco Kids State 2018; Back to Rochester
Topic Started: Aug 21 2017, 08:15 PM (22,880 Views)
tr29
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larson311
May 10 2018, 07:08 AM
tr29
May 9 2018, 11:03 AM
larson311
May 9 2018, 10:45 AM
I will do the north/south comparison after the weekend.
Make sure you factor in kids that are playing baseball and doing track, lacrosse, and tennis. I know my son is playing almost every weekend because of the snow/rain outs. Don’t forget to factor the kids going to prom. Kids going to weddings, kids helping on the farm because of late planting, or kids that might just be working...........

Should be a very interesting spreadsheet
The date was the same last year and past years, so the trend should still be the same year to year with kids doing other sports at this time as well.
There is also more postponements and changes to high school schedules then in the past few years. More Saturday games and matches
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braves
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tr29
May 10 2018, 07:48 AM
larson311
May 10 2018, 07:08 AM
tr29
May 9 2018, 11:03 AM
larson311
May 9 2018, 10:45 AM
I will do the north/south comparison after the weekend.
Make sure you factor in kids that are playing baseball and doing track, lacrosse, and tennis. I know my son is playing almost every weekend because of the snow/rain outs. Don’t forget to factor the kids going to prom. Kids going to weddings, kids helping on the farm because of late planting, or kids that might just be working...........

Should be a very interesting spreadsheet
The date was the same last year and past years, so the trend should still be the same year to year with kids doing other sports at this time as well.
There is also more postponements and changes to high school schedules then in the past few years. More Saturday games and matches
I disagree. Once the weather got nice, it got real nice. There have been many years like this, and sometimes more rain outs. So that is a poor point to explain the 81 less kids this year. Geography is reason #1
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mndak
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May 9 2018, 11:23 AM
My son had 35 kids in his bracket in Folkstyle and this weekend only 3. Waste of my time and money to drive almost 3 hours to Rochester and see less matches than we have in any other tournament all spring.
If there are only 3 kids in some brackets why are they not allowing walk up registrations?

Charge the walk-ups 20$ extra and allow the entry.

I still don't understand why tournaments are willing to turn kids away at the door. Not that it's a large problem here but it's something that should be looked into if the numbers are really that weak.
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This tournament could be held in pretty much any facility in MN. With less than 500 kids you don't need an auditorium. We ran a tournament with 450 kids in our high school.

MNUSA folkstyle has 1700 kids and NYWA has 2400 so I understand the venue being the key component for them.
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larson311
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423 was the final count (not counting girls division)

85 from North of Monticello, so still 20%.

Trackwrestling has attendance going back to 2010 and this is the lowest number ever...that's the most concerning part. I thought the drop would come from Northern wrestlers, but the location change didn't seem to have much affect from those participants. Did more people plan to go to Northern Plains with WTT in town? Tough to say.



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getyourpoints
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larson311
May 14 2018, 08:43 AM
423 was the final count (not counting girls division)

85 from North of Monticello, so still 20%.

Trackwrestling has attendance going back to 2010 and this is the lowest number ever...that's the most concerning part. I thought the drop would come from Northern wrestlers, but the location change didn't seem to have much affect from those participants. Did more people plan to go to Northern Plains with WTT in town? Tough to say.



This is concerning for sure but to say its a location issue is (which larson311 is not) very short-sighted. There is a list of thoughts of why this weekend was not as strong as previous years.
1. Same weekend as mothers day.
2. Same weekend as the fishing opener.
3. Some hammers are just doing Northern Planes since its still in MN this year.
4. You no longer have to do state to qualify to compete at Northern Planes for Cadet and JR like previous years.
5. Colleges are getting seniors into the wrestling room earlier and earlier each year.
6. A couple of the qualifiers were snowed out.
7. Several of the elite hs wrestlers are training for worlds and UWW verse Fargo.
8. Could a better location be a draw like WI has by doing their tournament at Wisc dells? Unfortunately, MN doesn't have a tourist city like that.
9. This year's senior class was very special, we may be in for a couple year slump. Flo Wrestling is claiming the next couple years could be a temporary national slump compared to the past 5 over the top years.
10. The two youth tournaments run too late in the season and one of them is very late in the season, many would like to see the folkstyle season end sooner.
JMO
Edited by getyourpoints, May 14 2018, 09:18 AM.
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braves
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May 14 2018, 09:16 AM
larson311
May 14 2018, 08:43 AM
423 was the final count (not counting girls division)

85 from North of Monticello, so still 20%.

Trackwrestling has attendance going back to 2010 and this is the lowest number ever...that's the most concerning part. I thought the drop would come from Northern wrestlers, but the location change didn't seem to have much affect from those participants. Did more people plan to go to Northern Plains with WTT in town? Tough to say.



This is concerning for sure but to say its a location issue is (which larson311 is not) very short-sighted. There is a list of thoughts of why this weekend was not as strong as previous years.
1. Same weekend as mothers day.
2. Same weekend as the fishing opener.
3. Some hammers are just doing Northern Planes since its still in MN this year.
4. You no longer have to do state to qualify to compete at Northern Planes for Cadet and JR like previous years.
5. Colleges are getting seniors into the wrestling room earlier and earlier each year.
6. A couple of the qualifiers were snowed out.
7. Several of the elite hs wrestlers are training for worlds and UWW verse Fargo.
8. Could a better location be a draw like WI has by doing their tournament at Wisc dells? Unfortunately, MN doesn't have a tourist city like that.
9. This year's senior class was very special, we may be in for a couple year slump. Flo Wrestling is claiming the next couple years could be a temporary national slump compared to the past 5 over the top years.
10. The two youth tournaments run too late in the season and one of them is very late in the season, many would like to see the folkstyle season end sooner.
JMO
I think this is a nice list, but it is very short sighted on your part to not admit location is the key factor. Don't spin this people- everything you mentioned has happened before, so nothing new there.
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Tiny Tornado
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It is a nice list, and an accurate one....Location is just one more item on the list, not # 1. I'd say the top 4 were definately the biggest factors...yes, it was on mother’s day weekend last year, with NP the next week... BUT- last year we didn’t have an April snow catastrophe that messed up so many other events... you have to please look at ALL factors, and stop pretending it’s only about just one thing...


I'd like to personally thank all who helped this past weekend, with tableworking, running cameras, and keeping things running smoothly.....it's always a pleasure for me to be at the head table and be able to answer questions and help; this weekend was mostly smiling and happy faces....

hope to see ya'll next weekend as well B)
Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 14 2018, 01:08 PM.
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braves
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May 14 2018, 10:21 AM
It is a nice list, and an accurate one....Location is just one more item on the list, not # 1. I'd say the top 4 were definately the biggest factors...


I'd like to personally thank all who helped this past weekend, with tableworking, running cameras, and keeping things running smoothly.....it's always a pleasure for me to be at the head table and be able to answer questions and help; this weekend was mostly smiling and happy faces....

hope to see ya'll next weekend as well B)
Last year the event was over Mother's Day and NP was in Rochester the next week.

I wish people would stop spinning this- location, location, location! Don't try and make it about something else. We need to fix this.
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Happydance23
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braves
May 14 2018, 11:06 AM
Tiny Tornado
May 14 2018, 10:21 AM
It is a nice list, and an accurate one....Location is just one more item on the list, not # 1. I'd say the top 4 were definately the biggest factors...


I'd like to personally thank all who helped this past weekend, with tableworking, running cameras, and keeping things running smoothly.....it's always a pleasure for me to be at the head table and be able to answer questions and help; this weekend was mostly smiling and happy faces....

hope to see ya'll next weekend as well B)
Last year the event was over Mother's Day and NP was in Rochester the next week.

I wish people would stop spinning this- location, location, location! Don't try and make it about something else. We need to fix this.
I agree location needs to be considered. But if its as big of a problem as you say it is then why were the numbers from the north almost Identical?
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larson311
May 14 2018, 08:43 AM
423 was the final count (not counting girls division)

85 from North of Monticello, so still 20%.

Trackwrestling has attendance going back to 2010 and this is the lowest number ever...that's the most concerning part. I thought the drop would come from Northern wrestlers, but the location change didn't seem to have much affect from those participants. Did more people plan to go to Northern Plains with WTT in town? Tough to say.



Without a doubt, YES.... Northern plains is a qualifier for Fargo, so many cadets and juniors will be showing up next weekend- not everyone can afford or wants to commit to two weekends in a row...
As far as the kids ? Same reason... I feel many chose NP over State...
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braves
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Glad everyone is okay with a 20% numbers drop in one year. Moving on I guess.
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getyourpoints
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I was able to sit in on the MNUSA meeting and there was a huge focus on making sure improvements are made.
They are listening and focused on providing the best tournament they can. No one was excited with last weekends numbers.
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Folkstyle season should end when NCAA's end. USAW folkstyle nationals should be the week before. We shouldn't be going to Heartland Duals, we should be training the international styles. MN will have great numbers at Northern Plains, many did not make it to qualifiers for state. It would be nice to have it closer to the city, but in a nice facility. Somebody put up bid up for it!
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larson311
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Northwest
Apr 5 2018, 01:49 PM
getyourpoints
Apr 4 2018, 11:30 PM
The location for the event is a difficult choice for sure, especially knowing the budget is a huge factor. For the past 10 years my family relocated to NE Wisconsin for my work and we just moved back so I am very new to many of these debates. In Wisconsin the state Greco/Freestyle tournament is held in Wisconsin Dells (far south west corner) and the only complaint I heard as a coach was the cost. No one ever had an issue with commuting for a state event even though the Dells are not close to any major population hub. The average commute was 3.5 hours.
8 hours is a crazy drive for those who have to make it no doubt.
If I am not mistaken a majority of the revenues created from this event goes back into the athletes? Doesn't most of the money made go to helping support the State dual teams and the cadets and JR's that are attending Fargo? I know in many other states the Fargo costs are over 2500.00 for athletes to join.
So in saying that finding affordable venues is very critical and if the Rochester travel bureau or commission is a factor in driving down costs shouldn't that be a legitimate reason to have it there?
Now if other communities like St Cloud can offer the same or better it should be considered, but can they?
Your point is understood, however, why is it ok for the membership to have to spend thousands of dollars extra for traveling, lodging, gas, time of from work, etc. so mn/usa can make more money? How about just increasing the entrance fee by $5.00 which would help cover come of the perks Rochester keeps throwing at the organization? Reference is often made to "northern wrestlers", I beg to differ. Just about anyone north of I-94 would benefit by a more central location.
There was a search for a new venue for freestyle/greco several years ago and Monti was chosen. St. Cloud was willing to almost match dollar for dollar what Rochester was offering. St. Cloud wants this tournament! One option in St. Cloud was the Herb Brooks National Hockey facility. Two Olympic size rinks and one had raised seating with seats that had backs, a very classy facility. The other practice rink had no seating but arrangements could have been made for temporary seating for the 4 mats that would have been in the practice rink. The rinks are attached. The University is academic year is over by the time this tournament takes place so, parking would not have been a serious issue. There was some that were determined not to have a wrestling event in a hockey arena. Also, it was determined that the event MUST be held at a venue where all mats are under one roof. The Civic Center in Rochester will be two rooms.
Unfortunately, the search that took place was done merely because the RCTC was not available for the weekend it was needed. That fact was not revealed to the membership.
Regarding fgw post, it sounds like competitive bids have been put in for St. Cloud to match what Rochester bid if you look in the quoted comments from Northwest. I'm not sure how reliable this info is though as the bids haven't been made public that we could see.
Edited by larson311, May 14 2018, 02:48 PM.
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getyourpoints
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Who told you that about St Cloud?
From the limited information I have, that's much different then what I heard.
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If the bids were made public, you would see they are accurate. Monti can not be competitive with Rochester and St. Cloud, you are dealing with a school district. Monti does not have a visitors and convention bureau like Rochester and St. Cloud. They are unable to provide up front money, reduced room rates, comp. rooms for organizers, etc. Thousands of dollars were left on the table when Monti was chosen over St. Cloud and Rochester. Anything is better than Rochester for the growth of the sport and mn/usa. St. Cloud has 2 facilities able to handle events and they are ready and willing to talk. The best facility is the St. Cloud Rivers Edge Convention Center, superior to any facility visited including anything Rochester has. The only drawback for this facility was lack of seating. This problem may have been overcome with temporary seating. Very large venue, attached parking and lodging and a VCB wanting to work with mn/usa. The Herb Brooks facility is large enough for freestyle/greco as well but, some just did not want a wrestling tournament in a hockey facility. The Rivers Edge is even large enough to handle the folkstyle tournament.
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The only reason I choose to not have my son wrestle last weekend was the location. If it were in Monticello he would have wrestled
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getyourpoints
May 14 2018, 09:16 AM
larson311
May 14 2018, 08:43 AM
423 was the final count (not counting girls division)

85 from North of Monticello, so still 20%.

Trackwrestling has attendance going back to 2010 and this is the lowest number ever...that's the most concerning part. I thought the drop would come from Northern wrestlers, but the location change didn't seem to have much affect from those participants. Did more people plan to go to Northern Plains with WTT in town? Tough to say.



This is concerning for sure but to say its a location issue is (which larson311 is not) very short-sighted. There is a list of thoughts of why this weekend was not as strong as previous years.
1. Same weekend as mothers day.
2. Same weekend as the fishing opener.
3. Some hammers are just doing Northern Planes since its still in MN this year.
4. You no longer have to do state to qualify to compete at Northern Planes for Cadet and JR like previous years.
5. Colleges are getting seniors into the wrestling room earlier and earlier each year.
6. A couple of the qualifiers were snowed out.
7. Several of the elite hs wrestlers are training for worlds and UWW verse Fargo.
8. Could a better location be a draw like WI has by doing their tournament at Wisc dells? Unfortunately, MN doesn't have a tourist city like that.
9. This year's senior class was very special, we may be in for a couple year slump. Flo Wrestling is claiming the next couple years could be a temporary national slump compared to the past 5 over the top years.
10. The two youth tournaments run too late in the season and one of them is very late in the season, many would like to see the folkstyle season end sooner.
JMO
I think three big factors played a roll in the lower attendance.

1. There seems to be a huge shift towards folkstyle wrestling, with better opportunities and a much longer season than in the past.
USA has great opportunities with the state tournament in March, the national tournament in Iowa, and the heartland duals.
NYWA is a long grind with 3 tournament levels and significant travel for some. Personally I think they could cut the district tournament and just start with their regional tournaments.

2. The location stinks. Rochester is way to far east for a large portion of the wrestling population.

3. The state tournament doesn't qualify you for anything. You can still compete at higher levels without participating in the state tournament.

I don't know what the answer is but it is a little unsettling to see the drop in participation for freestyle.
Edited by mndak, May 14 2018, 06:10 PM.
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Why is never held in mlps or st paul?
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gopherfan149
May 14 2018, 06:05 PM
The only reason I choose to not have my son wrestle last weekend was the location. If it were in Monticello he would have wrestled
Same here. Location was the issue.
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wrestler4ever
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May 14 2018, 02:38 PM
Folkstyle season should end when NCAA's end. USAW folkstyle nationals should be the week before. We shouldn't be going to Heartland Duals, we should be training the international styles. MN will have great numbers at Northern Plains, many did not make it to qualifiers for state. It would be nice to have it closer to the city, but in a nice facility. Somebody put up bid up for it!
I can understand that from a freestyle perspective but here is a real-life scenario from our club. We would have 80-100 kids in youth each year and that would drop to about 8-10 once folkstyle was over. Those 10 had to travel to find freestyle practice. We now have over 60 that extend through March during the folkstyle tournaments. It has impacted our HS success immensely because of the extended mat time and the "team" concepts that are available. I wish they would all go freestyle but other sports, farming, and many factors go into why they don't.
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May 15 2018, 09:18 AM
fgw
May 14 2018, 02:38 PM
Folkstyle season should end when NCAA's end. USAW folkstyle nationals should be the week before. We shouldn't be going to Heartland Duals, we should be training the international styles. MN will have great numbers at Northern Plains, many did not make it to qualifiers for state. It would be nice to have it closer to the city, but in a nice facility. Somebody put up bid up for it!
I can understand that from a freestyle perspective but here is a real-life scenario from our club. We would have 80-100 kids in youth each year and that would drop to about 8-10 once folkstyle was over. Those 10 had to travel to find freestyle practice. We now have over 60 that extend through March during the folkstyle tournaments. It has impacted our HS success immensely because of the extended mat time and the "team" concepts that are available. I wish they would all go freestyle but other sports, farming, and many factors go into why they don't.
Quite the predicament, isn't it? The long folkstyle season with NYWA going so late, may help folkstyle wrestling quality in the State, while hurting FRECO. Having folkstyle end earlier likely would help FRECO in the State to the detriment of folkstyle quality. No easy answers, but the marketplace is doing some speaking by the success of the NYWA tournament. I complain about how late it is and about how expensive it is, but I was certainly there with my kids.
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May 15 2018, 10:56 AM
wrestler4ever
May 15 2018, 09:18 AM
fgw
May 14 2018, 02:38 PM
Folkstyle season should end when NCAA's end. USAW folkstyle nationals should be the week before. We shouldn't be going to Heartland Duals, we should be training the international styles. MN will have great numbers at Northern Plains, many did not make it to qualifiers for state. It would be nice to have it closer to the city, but in a nice facility. Somebody put up bid up for it!
I can understand that from a freestyle perspective but here is a real-life scenario from our club. We would have 80-100 kids in youth each year and that would drop to about 8-10 once folkstyle was over. Those 10 had to travel to find freestyle practice. We now have over 60 that extend through March during the folkstyle tournaments. It has impacted our HS success immensely because of the extended mat time and the "team" concepts that are available. I wish they would all go freestyle but other sports, farming, and many factors go into why they don't.
Quite the predicament, isn't it? The long folkstyle season with NYWA going so late, may help folkstyle wrestling quality in the State, while hurting FRECO. Having folkstyle end earlier likely would help FRECO in the State to the detriment of folkstyle quality. No easy answers, but the marketplace is doing some speaking by the success of the NYWA tournament. I complain about how late it is and about how expensive it is, but I was certainly there with my kids.
It is a predicament. If you move the folkstyle tournaments up you conflict with all the small towns that hold their tourneys during that time. That would really hurt the clubs in MN because for many that is their sole funding for their kids.
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wrestler4ever
May 15 2018, 11:35 AM
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May 15 2018, 10:56 AM
wrestler4ever
May 15 2018, 09:18 AM
fgw
May 14 2018, 02:38 PM
Folkstyle season should end when NCAA's end. USAW folkstyle nationals should be the week before. We shouldn't be going to Heartland Duals, we should be training the international styles. MN will have great numbers at Northern Plains, many did not make it to qualifiers for state. It would be nice to have it closer to the city, but in a nice facility. Somebody put up bid up for it!
I can understand that from a freestyle perspective but here is a real-life scenario from our club. We would have 80-100 kids in youth each year and that would drop to about 8-10 once folkstyle was over. Those 10 had to travel to find freestyle practice. We now have over 60 that extend through March during the folkstyle tournaments. It has impacted our HS success immensely because of the extended mat time and the "team" concepts that are available. I wish they would all go freestyle but other sports, farming, and many factors go into why they don't.
Quite the predicament, isn't it? The long folkstyle season with NYWA going so late, may help folkstyle wrestling quality in the State, while hurting FRECO. Having folkstyle end earlier likely would help FRECO in the State to the detriment of folkstyle quality. No easy answers, but the marketplace is doing some speaking by the success of the NYWA tournament. I complain about how late it is and about how expensive it is, but I was certainly there with my kids.
It is a predicament. If you move the folkstyle tournaments up you conflict with all the small towns that hold their tourneys during that time. That would really hurt the clubs in MN because for many that is their sole funding for their kids.
I’m not being insensitive, but- isn’t that their problem to solve ?

No club is immune to competition from other events, or other competition-

Also im going to guess that having to travel long distances to attend freestyle practices, is a result of lack of funding, as well ?

Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 15 2018, 12:27 PM.
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wrestler4ever
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May 15 2018, 12:23 PM
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May 15 2018, 11:35 AM
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May 15 2018, 10:56 AM
wrestler4ever
May 15 2018, 09:18 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Quite the predicament, isn't it? The long folkstyle season with NYWA going so late, may help folkstyle wrestling quality in the State, while hurting FRECO. Having folkstyle end earlier likely would help FRECO in the State to the detriment of folkstyle quality. No easy answers, but the marketplace is doing some speaking by the success of the NYWA tournament. I complain about how late it is and about how expensive it is, but I was certainly there with my kids.
It is a predicament. If you move the folkstyle tournaments up you conflict with all the small towns that hold their tourneys during that time. That would really hurt the clubs in MN because for many that is their sole funding for their kids.
I’m not being insensitive, but- isn’t that their problem to solve ?

No club is immune to competition from other events, or other competition-

Also im going to guess that having to travel long distances to attend freestyle practices, is a result of lack of funding, as well ?

It is solved already. Dates are well established and they cater to the majority. My point is there’s a reason it is the way it is and it gives the majority more opportunities.

The having to travel for frestyle has nothing to do with money for our club, it has to do with lack of interest.
Edited by wrestler4ever, May 15 2018, 12:39 PM.
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mndak
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May 15 2018, 12:23 PM
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May 15 2018, 11:35 AM
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May 15 2018, 10:56 AM
wrestler4ever
May 15 2018, 09:18 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Quite the predicament, isn't it? The long folkstyle season with NYWA going so late, may help folkstyle wrestling quality in the State, while hurting FRECO. Having folkstyle end earlier likely would help FRECO in the State to the detriment of folkstyle quality. No easy answers, but the marketplace is doing some speaking by the success of the NYWA tournament. I complain about how late it is and about how expensive it is, but I was certainly there with my kids.
It is a predicament. If you move the folkstyle tournaments up you conflict with all the small towns that hold their tourneys during that time. That would really hurt the clubs in MN because for many that is their sole funding for their kids.
I’m not being insensitive, but- isn’t that their problem to solve ?

No club is immune to competition from other events, or other competition-

Also im going to guess that having to travel long distances to attend freestyle practices, is a result of lack of funding, as well ?

Starting elementary wrestling in November and running through the middle of may is an insane season and not in the best interest of the majority K-6 wrestlers.

Each club needs to cater to their individual needs. There are clubs that have maybe a dozen kids that will thrive off of that schedule but the majority of kids are just not that interested in competing in one sport for 6 months.

The best you can do is make your schedules beneficial to every kid involved. Splitting seasons and adding an early season or late season option for those interested may be beneficial to keeping your kids interested as they grow older.

I also believe quality mat time is more important than the quantity of mat time. You can get alot done in a short period of time.

On the other hand if the kids get burnt out and lose interest during a long season you may be doing more harm than good.
Edited by mndak, May 15 2018, 12:54 PM.
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kidwrestlingcoach
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Dilly Dilly. JJ Classic in Edina this year. No Mothers Day, no fishing opener, no hotel for me. Now I just need to avoid the dreaded late season soccer concussion.
http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/20137


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May 15 2018, 12:51 PM
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May 15 2018, 12:23 PM
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May 15 2018, 11:35 AM
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May 15 2018, 10:56 AM

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It is a predicament. If you move the folkstyle tournaments up you conflict with all the small towns that hold their tourneys during that time. That would really hurt the clubs in MN because for many that is their sole funding for their kids.
I’m not being insensitive, but- isn’t that their problem to solve ?

No club is immune to competition from other events, or other competition-

Also im going to guess that having to travel long distances to attend freestyle practices, is a result of lack of funding, as well ?

Starting elementary wrestling in November and running through the middle of may is an insane season and not in the best interest of the majority K-6 wrestlers.

Each club needs to cater to their individual needs. There are clubs that have maybe a dozen kids that will thrive off of that schedule but the majority of kids are just not that interested in competing in one sport for 6 months.

The best you can do is make your schedules beneficial to every kid involved. Splitting seasons and adding an early season or late season option for those interested may be beneficial to keeping your kids interested as they grow older.

I also believe quality mat time is more important than the quantity of mat time. You can get alot done in a short period of time.

On the other hand if the kids get burnt out and lose interest during a long season you may be doing more harm than good.
I'm a big fan of the split season concept, but haven't been involved directly with a program that has done it. Those that need a break can take one, and those that want to charge ahead can. Any club out there that has tried it and had it not work so well?
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CropDuster
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So, here's a series of questions I came up with on the drive home today.

Someone said: "State isn't mandatory, so some kids might've chosen to stay home and go to Northern Plains the next weekend."

If I'm not mistaken, in the past, State has been a pre-requisite for NP. It may still be, I'm not sure. However, would it be better that they make it mandatory for all? If location was central, would it be a better choice to make it a pre-req? Or, was it a positive to make it a choice and allow wrestlers to choose, possibly leading to less wrestlers at state?
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