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| MN/USA Freestyle and Greco; The Pulse of Minnesota Wrestling | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 12 2006, 02:52 PM (5,151 Views) | |
| DKURTH | May 12 2006, 02:52 PM Post #1 |
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It was disturbing to see the dramatic decline in participation at the kids and cadets MN/USA State Freestyle Tournament last weekend. The tournament was about half the size it was 10 years ago. As a high school coach, and someone who moved to this state after college 19 years ago, I would like to make some observations. Minnesota is one of the most successful wrestling states in the country with a small population base. Demographically, 75% of the residence of Minnesota live within 50 miles of the Twin Cities. Although we do not have the large numbers of people like California or Ohio, we do have most of them in a central location. That can be a benefit in terms of access to practice facilities and youth coaches. However, it can be a negative for the out-state wrestlers, due to the fact that the reverse is true for them. When I first moved here, I was tremendously impressed with MN/USA Wrestling as an organization. People like Jim and Pat Short, Bill Hinchley and several others literally dedicated their lives to Minnesota Wrestling. If you were at the 2006 State Kids and Cadets tournament you saw Bill Hinchley on the mat, Pat Short at the head table and Jim roaming around on the floor. Their love for the organization and what it does for kids is obvious. The volunteers today, and those who helped with the tournament last weekend are equally as dedicated and passionate for the sport. Serious competition by a for profit organization called the NYWA five years ago threw a wrench into the works of MN/USA Wrestling and is now seriously jeopardizing the future of Minnesota wrestling. Many clubs, including ours in New Ulm, have shifted their focus away from freestyle and greco, and have gone towards folkstyle. MN/USA made the move to folkstyle to compete with the NYWA, even though they knew that it would have a negative affect on the freestyle and greco roman programs. This was done more by force than by choice. I know that many parents, and even coaches do not understand freestyle and greco roman wrestling as well as they do folkstyle. But, they need to understand this. The vast majority of state place winning and certainly state champion wrestlers compete regularly in the Spring and Summer freestyle programs offered by MN/USA. The Father of a 3x State Champion and Collegiate National Champion made the comment that his son never attended a camp in his life other than the cadet and junior camps offered by MN/USA Wrestling. The development of wrestlers in USA Wrestling, MN/USA Wrestling and clubs chartered by those two organizations is incredible. We have had members of our club wrestle in 8 different countries and several different states through USA and MN/USA Wrestling. Conversely, the NYWA offers opportunities to wrestle and trophies for everyone so they will feel good about themselves at the end of the tournament. The negative impact of the NYWA was very obvious at the MN/USA State freestyle tournament last weekend. The long term negative impact will be felt in 5-7 years when Minnesota struggles to compete on the national stage and our collegiate wrestlers have to be recruited from other states. I say this because we are developing a larger number of second tier wrestlers who only wrestle folkstyle in their careers. As the number of second tier wrestlers grows, and the number of premiere wrestlers shrinks, our best athletes will not have the in-state competition needed to push them to that next level. MN/USA Wrestling understands the challenges that lie ahead of them. They are actively working to fix the problems. Remember however, this is a non-profit volunteer organization, and things get done when volunteers do it. I invite every parent or coach who thinks that the NYWA is a good option for their program, or their son or daughters wrestling development to take a look at the bigger picture. The future of Minnesota wrestling does not lie within the handful of volunteers who are dedicated to MN/USA Wrestling, it lies within the parents, coaches and the youth of the state who are competing in the greatest sport in the world. |
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| todd | May 12 2006, 05:27 PM Post #2 |
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Agreed dkurth you said it perfect! |
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| lilmatdog | May 12 2006, 06:33 PM Post #3 |
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I do have a question. If MYWA only concentrates on folkstyle, and collegiate wrestling is folkstyle, then how does this weaken the kids working towards wrestling in college? |
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| todd | May 12 2006, 06:38 PM Post #4 |
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mat time comes to mind, and there is alot of freestyle and greco wrestled by college wrestlers also. I do agree with kurth look at how many kids place in state or win it or who prosper in college almost all have somewhat of a freestyle or greco back round! |
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| twigboy | May 12 2006, 06:54 PM Post #5 |
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Coach Kurth Hit the nail on the head. The big pitch for NYWA is how "smooth" it runs and I'm sure it does. NYWA dazzles wrestlers with their show MNUSA develops them. Kevin Orr was my sons first coach and Dave Korri is his present coach, they both have told us how important MNUSA is and that is where we put our efforts, time and money. |
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| DKURTH | May 12 2006, 08:18 PM Post #6 |
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Lilmatdog, College wrestling is mostly about position. Freestyle and greco roman matches can get out of control very quickly if you don't learn how to control your position. That is true about folkstyle as well, but to a lesser extent. The basic skills of wrestling, and in general terms, the basic techniques are the same for every style. The scoring is different. But, that scoring makes freestyle and greco matches develop much more quickly. The faster pace leads to more intensity and the need for sharper and quicker skill development. I know that you live on here and are a true wrestling fan. I hope this helps to clarify the need for freestyle and greco for you. This is not an anti NYWA thing. I believe that opportunities to wrestle are opportunities to wrestle. However, I draw the line when it is at the expense of our proud tradition of national wrestling prominence. And, that is what is in the early stages of development in my opinion. |
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| stmabooster | May 12 2006, 09:01 PM Post #7 |
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Here's the big problem. A lot of clubs organize around NYWA, wrestle in their state tournament, and then shut down for the season. Under the traditional MN/USA model, all kids wrestle with their club through state freestyle in May. Then the midgets up through Cadet train through to the Northern Plains in the middle of June. All of the top schoolboy through junior kids are invited to the national duals in late June and early July and all of the Cadets/Juniors are invited to training camp and nationals in mid to late July. If your whole town's concept is to only do NYWA, it is seriously stunting the development of your top wrestlers. The problem is not that kids participate in NYWA, it is that clubs organize around this tourney and then skip out on MN/USA. Any club director that thinks this is helping his kids should rethink what they are doing. |
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| lilmatdog | May 12 2006, 09:11 PM Post #8 |
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So the issue is they ONLY wrestle NYWA, I can see that. I think states out East actually have wrestling clinics/teams/leagues/meets in the fall. If you only get on the mat once a week, every week, it has to be a plus. I readily admit my fortay is high school, on these other forum I usually only read and learn. Thanks for helping me. |
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| LIVEWELL | May 13 2006, 12:29 AM Post #9 |
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First, My son has participated extensively in both programs and each has strengths and each has weaknesses. NYWA caters more to the fence sitters, the kids that are still not sure they will wrestle thoughout high school, then MNUSA does. I think MNUSA caters more to the kids who are sure they are going to try to be varsity wrestlers down the road. I know there are some exceptions and some crossover but hear me out. NYWA puts on a smooth and postive event for kids at all levels. However, they don't do much on the national scene and yes have created tournament competition for MNUSA. MNUSA, I believe caters more to the top level wrestlers- MNUSA does a better job of "developing" wrestlers (although, many great wrestlers have "developed" by just wrestling NYWA) but MNUSA can't run a smooth tournament to save its life. I personally am patient and don't mind waiting around for 8 to 10 hours in a gym but the masses do not want to do that. To have the sport of wrestling survive you need the masses not just the serious kids. 80 percent of the elementry wrestling population has not made up their mind on the sport of wrestling yet- they are looking for enough positive experiences to make the big commitment. 20 percent are "sold out" and want to be wrestling champions. Without the 80 percenters the sport would not be around for the 20 percenters to be champions in. I can't stand the whole profit vs non-profit issue. The NYWA saw an opportunity, took the time risk and the financial risk of starting something different and puts out a product that obviously people are willing to pay for...to me thats called free enterprise and thats what America is founded on! I believe both groups fill a need in the sport of wrestling in Minnesota. If they could work together and learn from each other I think Minnesota would have bigger numbers and more elite wrestlers. Sorry for the long post but finger pointing will NOT solve anything....be part of the solution not the problem. Today, our kids have so many other opportunities outside of wrestling that I consider it a blessing that they are choosing wrestling at all even if it is only NYWA or only MNUSA |
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| nwsub | May 13 2006, 01:30 AM Post #10 |
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Great post DKURTH, LIVEWELL - I didn't see yours when I posted but I also agree with you and stmabooster. I was surprised/disappointed when I saw the number of kids in the various brackets. What a change from the not too distant past. I think what has happened is the serious wrestlers are still doing USA Wrestling but the not so serious wrestlers (and baseball kids) figure NYWA is good enough since folkstyle is what the high schools do. Before USA Kids Folkstyle and even with it there used to be a gap between high school folkstyle and baseball. After the high school wrestling season, freestyle/greco filled the gap for a few weeks in March before baseball started. USA was able to hook many kids into the freestyle/greco season during that time. NYWA came along and their season pretty much started after the high school season and went right up to baseball practices. They ran their tournaments like the towns were used to for kids folkstyle. Get a couple of matches and go home. You didn't have to buy a $25/$30 membership card. Kids/parents figured why learn freestyle/greco when that's not what they do in high school? Why pay for a card, stay all day at tournaments, have to volunteer/help, etc when with NYWA you didn't have to do any of that and baseball practice was about to be starting? At first NYWA didn't hurt because the people already in USA Wrestling stayed with USA and maybe did some NYWA. However, since NYWA started the new little kids and new wrestling families looked at the choices and many went NYWA. I also would like them to work together and encourage kids to do both. |
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| todd | May 13 2006, 05:47 AM Post #11 |
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No offense to the nywa and usa thing,hardley can compare the two! nywa is 3 tournies has no actual training camps ect. nywa is a tourny,Usa is aclub that has coaches ,practices camps then it has its tournies and most clubs practice all summer if you want!you have the opportunity to wrestle well into the summer! see what im saying a development club verses a tournament! hard to compare! |
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| DKURTH | May 13 2006, 07:44 AM Post #12 |
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I stated in my first post that MN/USA Wrestling has some problems that need to be addressed. That is part of the reason for this thread, to get opinions on how to make this work. MN/USA is a better product (ie. development, camps, national opportunities, etc.) with packaging problems. The NYWA is a standard product (opportunities to wrestle only) with a better package. I don't have a problem with competition, and I do believe it is what makes this country great. But, I do have a problem with the legions of outstate programs that embrace the NYWA as "the way they are going to go". They are kidding themselves into believing that the NYWA will build their program, when in reality it is simply another opportunity for mat time. Dumping out of the developmental faction of wrestling in the state (MN/USA Wresting) is a grave mistake for these clubs. MN/USA Wrestling needs to re-commit itself to the development of the outstate and to address the problems they have at tournaments. Again, this is a volunteer organization and it will take a commitment from those volunteers to make this work for the good of Minnesota Wrestling. |
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| greaterminnesota | May 13 2006, 07:46 AM Post #13 |
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My son has wrestled in both NYWA and MN/USA. Both have been good experiences. However, most if not all of his improvement has come with wrestling with MN/USA. Wrestling on duals teams or natiional competitions exposes wrestlers to the "best of the best" from other states. Wrestlers really know how they stack up after these tourneys. Much has been said of the sucess of high school wrestlers who have been on the duals teams. Some of these guys have two years + in mat time over their grade. In other words a freshman may have the same amount of mat time as a Jr or Sr who doesn't wrestle freestyle or greco. It' s all about mat time. Also when these guys get to the state HS tournament they are seldom fazed as they have been wrestling in big tourneys with lots of competition and pressure. |
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| wannabebetter | May 13 2006, 08:02 AM Post #14 |
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| LIVEWELL | May 13 2006, 09:59 AM Post #15 |
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One way to improve MNUSA is to become more well rounded. MNUSA keeps using the "we develop wrestlers" logic and it is 100% true, however, most elementry kids and their parents are not looking to "specialize" in wrestling at this time. Some are trying to figure out if they should be "developed" in baseball, soccer golf and so on. That is why, right now, the NYWA fills an important gap-to get the masses on the mat so they stay with it long enough to eventually make the big commitment to our awesome sport. Also, not being a jerk just wondering, where does the money go? Seemingly, only a handful of all MNUSA wrestlers can tap into "development money" otherwise you pay for every tourney, every camp, every membership card and the right to be in a club. The vast majority of all MNUSA wrestlers won't have an opportunity to tap into development money so then where is the benefit? Like I said, I'm just wondering- maybe I'm missing something, but if not then it seems like a lot of kids endure poorly run tournies so some can reap the rewards. This is a constructive thread, thanks for starting it. |
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| DKURTH | May 13 2006, 11:47 AM Post #16 |
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2/3 of the money spent on USA Wrestling cards goes to secondary medical insurance and to insure coaches and clubs against litigation (something the nywa does not have). Also, I did not say that the NYWA started 5 years ago, I said they became a serious threat 5 years ago. I have never said that there is not a place for the NYWA. |
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| stmabooster | May 13 2006, 12:47 PM Post #17 |
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All of the Cadets and Juniors that go to Camp and Nationals get some of those developmental dollars. All of the Cadet/Juniors that go to the U for the Monday/Wednesday practices get to go for free. I'm pretty sure that the Central program in St Cloud gets some funding from Mn/USA. All of the dual teams get some funding help. One thing I've been wondering is if NYWA would let MN/USA put a booth down at the NYWA state tournament to promote freestyle and greco. |
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| LIVEWELL | May 14 2006, 02:02 AM Post #18 |
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Thanks for the clarification STMA. A booth sounds like a good non-threatening idea! Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and respectable posts on this increasingly important issue. |
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| aftershock101 | May 15 2006, 07:47 AM Post #19 |
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"This is a non-profit volunteer organization." Is what I here. I am a part of a small club that is tring to build its numbers. Our parents do a great job of volunteering. They drive their kids 2 hours one way every weekend. I like to try and keep things inexspensive as possible; gas and motels are not cheep. So why is it the state will not recongnize their kids as a club? And yet ask for volunteers from their club. It was difficult for some of the younger wrestlers to be Unnat. Perhaps the MN/USA could increase thier numbers from the out state, and St. Cloud is only 45-50 min from the metro. How about some clinics in Bemidji, Moorhead, Marshall, Frazee, Benson, Granit Falls, Theif River Falls. There are tons of clubs out there that only do Folkstyle, give them a call. Provide them with some help. It may be as simple as providing a coach once a week, or even a clinic. We need to think out of the box some times. It may take a few years, but it could pay off in the end. And one other things. Clubs start to early for the little kids. I think there are some clubs that start in November. November to July. That is 8 months of wrestling, with no breaks. My kids not burt out but I am. I know there is nothing MN wrestling can do about it but 6 weeks between state and regionals and another 5-6 between regionals and nationals. That is a long down time with no compatition. And it would be niece to see a were all the money goes, some type of spreed sheet. I provide one for our club as I am shure many other do. |
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| IMONTOPSTEP | May 15 2006, 08:58 AM Post #20 |
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I know this arguement has gone on since the inception of NYWA - my boys have participated in both, one really enjoying freestyle and Greco and one that likes folkstyle more. Without a doubt NYWA runs a better tournament - I don't think that there is an arguement about that. But I have several thoughts that banter back and forth in my head on ways for my boys to get better, and I contemplate these different thoughts. 1. Do all the kids get better at folkstyle by wrestling freestyle? Or are just the good Folkstyle wrestlers wrestling freestyle? 2. Everyone talks about freestyle getting you better for Folkstyle, then why don't we just practice folkstyle more, then for sure you will get better at folkstyle. 3. Many kids wrestle 60-80 matches of folkstyle and then wrestle (maybe 20) freestyle matches in a year. Is a boy that wrestled 100 folkstyle, and no freestyle - now behind the curve? 4. (Wrestling all year) I can see the benefit to the 1% that wrestle all year long and plan on going to college some day to wrestle - but for 99% of these kids - that is not the case. 5. I think that learning Greco would be a more beneficial series of moves to add to a Folkstyle arsenal then freestyle (for upper body)?? 6. If I can't clasp, do a gut wrench, reverse gut wrench, ankle lace, or front head lock for points in Folkstyle - how will learning these moves help me in high school? 7. I am seriously trying to figure out ways to help my boys continue to get better - but the best answers I hear from is "they will learn to shoot better" - "they will learn balance" - can' this be learned at folkstyle too? 8. We have placed or won freestyle state every year we have participated - and will most likely continue to wrestle freestyle - I am really just asking questions, to try and find a answer that "turns on the lightbulb" and says oh - yea - that is what the benefit is of doing freestyle vs more folkstyle. 9. I have no hopes that my sons will ever wrestle Olympics or Internationally (not saying things couldn't change - but I have not set the bar that high for them at this point) 10. Any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks! |
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| formerhusky | May 15 2006, 10:00 AM Post #21 |
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Kurth, are you interested in going to Worlds Team Trials in Sioux City the 26-29, give me a call, you still got the #? |
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| 3ofthem | May 15 2006, 12:32 PM Post #22 |
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Somewhere in here I read that NYWA is a tournement and freestyle is a season of training. This is a right on the money statement. USA wrestling provides so many opportunities for our kids to train and learn from great wrestlers like Gordy Morgan, Dan Chandler, Chad Erickson, Brandon Eggum ext. NO money is put back into Minnesota wrestling by the NYWA. |
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| LIVEWELL | May 15 2006, 12:57 PM Post #23 |
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3ofthem are you sure NO money is put back into Minnesota wrestling by the NYWA? I believe the NYWA sponsors a weekend worth of duals in Wisconsin against the top youth teams from Michigan. Those NYWA wrestlers ARE from and represent Minnesota. Also, I do believe that the NYWA threw some money at the wrestlers from Minnesota that participated in the H.S. Nationals. Does MNUSA wrestling pay for part of the opportunies and then we pay for some because evreything I have seen with MNUSA has a fee attached to it. I'm not saying the fee is the problem, I'm saying there are some inconsistencies when people say that MNUSA provides coaches and opportunities with the money generated by the families of MNUSA wrestling. To me, my checkbook PROVIDES my son with coaches and opportunities. Again, I may be off but I don't see the evidence that all of the MNUSA money is pure and always going back to the kids. Lastly, I think both groups are awesome and I'm not just pro NYWA but I think MNUSA wrestling should step back, listen and learn instead of feeling backed into a corner and become defensive....let's work together, more opportunities are better then less for the long term betterment of the sport. |
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| cwillaert | May 15 2006, 01:06 PM Post #24 |
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Any club that is chartered and sanctioned will be recognized as a club. It's a matter of turning in the club charter/sanction forms and the minimal money required to insure it...in other words the club needs to be a USA insured club in order for us to recognize it as a club. If your club was chartered and sanctioned and you were still listed as unattached I will gladly help you to make sure that does not happen again. We currently do have clubs in the Frazee/Detroit Lakes/Park Rapids areas. The St. Cloud area kids attend the Central MN Wrestling Club. Both of these listed are outstanding clubs. Clay Nagel runs Regional Training Site's in the Moorhead area at Concordia College. As for providing a coach once a week...that is something typically handled by the club. This again goes back to people getting involved and volunteering. Many clubs (including Mankato) pay their coaches and while it may not be much in most cases it does at least partially cover the cost of gas. I would love to see more Regional Training Sites out there but again somebody has to take the bull by the horns and start one. This year Brian Parlin started one down in Rochester and by all accounts it was a huge success. MN/USA wants to help but people also need to tell us where and how we can help. As for where the money goes...that is public knowledge. We do not hide anything as we are a tax exempt non-profit as defined by state law. This is why we have BOD/General Membership meetings every month...so anybody can attend and find out where the money is going. If you email Mr. Hinchley he may even be able to get a copy of the yearly budget to you. |
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| cwillaert | May 15 2006, 01:29 PM Post #25 |
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Every dollar of "profit" made from every tournament run by MN/USA goes back in to MN Wrestling. Whether it be paying some of the costs for duals teams or helping Regional Training Sites or paying for our Cadets and Juniors to wrestle in Fargo, every dollar is going back to the kids wrestling for us. Just as an example, our Cadets and Juniors. They pay to attend our National Training camp every year. Approximately $325-$350 for a 5 day camp. Clinicians and coaches include world and Olympic team members as well as college National Champions and All-Americans. The $325 is basically covering room, board, facility use fees, paying for medical trainers, etc. So the kids pay for camp. MN/USA then covers all costs except meals for them at the National tournament in Fargo. This includes transportation to and from the event, hotel rooms while up there, uniforms and entry fees. For every so many kids we send to this tournament we also have to send mat officials and pairing officials. There are also coaches that need to be there to not just coach but chaperone. In some states the kids/parents will pay upwards of $1200 for something that we do for $325 or $350. One state was at $2300 a couple of years ago. Granted they had to travel further which costs more but it's not like they are paying $1900 to fly to Fargo and back. Let's even assume that the whole Fargo trip only costs $200 per kid per style (it is more than that), that would come out to $16,000 just for one age group. Believe me, the money is going back to the wrestlers. Come to a board/general membership meeting and you can see for yourself. The more people in the organization and the more events they attend, the more MN/USA has to give back to all age levels. All the money has to be going back into the organization to maintain it's non-profit status. We could not have pull tab sites (which require extensive audits and non-profit status) if the money was being inadequately tracked or spent. None of the people on the board are profiting at all from what they do. It is volunteer work that we do because we love the sport. At this time a number of volunteers are handling the duties of what was at one time a paid position (office secretary/manager/whatever you want to call it) so we could continue to fund the wrestlers. So some people are currently doing more than ever so that there was more money available to go back into the kids programs. |
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| grizadams | May 15 2006, 01:34 PM Post #26 |
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Nywa ends at the statle level, I think the mn/usa promotion needs to be the advancing competition goes national and world. Nywa age ends at 7th grade i believe, mn/usa goes till your dead if I'm not mistaken. I think what happened is parents see the nywa as a short series tourny with big awards and smooth running. except for state they run fast like the little opens in and out in two to three hours. mn/usa could put the clinics on durring the tournaments as part of the day , small 30 min clinics through out the day and the time will go by a lot faster. I also agree with state wide clinics. Computerize the weigh-ins, it can be done and needs to be done, lets go. I know these kids will choose freestyle over folkstyle if they get in and try it. Its about new technique , but its also about new style, fast paced matches , risky moves( cool moves) your teamates and friends at matside just waitin' for the 5 pointer. If mn/usa and nywa want to exist together the tournament dates need to split. or there will always be two seperate wrestling factions. Most of the school wrestling clubs in this state will choose nywa. Therefore a school won't be able to support mn/usa as a club, but an area can. multiple schools in to one club which is another plus for mn/usa. new faces and friends |
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| LIVEWELL | May 15 2006, 02:24 PM Post #27 |
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Thank You Mr. Wilaert for the brief explanation it helped my understanding a lot. I know people like you put a lot of time and effort in behind the scenes and in the spotlight. Thanks for all you have done and continue to do for our wrestlers. I have heard from several athletes that you are a huge asset to Minnesota wrestling. |
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| AUTHORITY | May 15 2006, 02:55 PM Post #28 |
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In the area I live in so many people think that freestyle and greco are bad for their kids. They actually think its about throws and dont want their kids to paticipate as it will cause bad habbits. As a Freestyle club coach and a veteran of the MN/USA circuit I try to convince them that their assumptions are not true. Look at the state champions on the wall of your high school in the past 10 years or so almost every one of them from the schools I am associated with were die hard freestyle guys who wrestled into the summer through Fargo. The coaching on the state level at Cadet and Junior camps and the workout partners the kids get are second to none. Kids cant get that from NYWA. Secondly as a coach I have learned more traveling and going to national level tourneys than a NYWA coach learns at their watered down local tournements, which in the end makes the technique I coach more advanced and more apt to work against top competition. The point of my post is my club is down to 6-10 kids by state freestyle every year and the NYWA club has up to 45-60 kids for their regional tourney. I have gotten to the point where I dont try to convince anyone to switch or give it a try. I get the cream of the crop and I get more 1 on 1 time with my wrestlers. It is the parents that are holding their own children back and do not even realize it. |
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| heavyweightdad | May 15 2006, 03:57 PM Post #29 |
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6-10 kids???? Your club is doing MUCH better than ours!!! A few go to some pratices, but in the last 3-5 years we have consistantly had 2 kids do Freestyle/Greco, one elem kid and one HS kid, the HS kid is the ONLY one who has made it to the state tourney more than once! Coincidence? I think NOT! We have 60-70 for folkstyle in K-6, one for freestyle/greco! 7-12th grade appx 50-60, one attends freestle/greco competitions (a few attend practices) To say it is frustrating is putting it mildly. St. Francis, Coon Rapids, Apple Valley and Hi-Flyers seem to be the ONLY clubs to get the consistant numbers. My question is, what is the secret? |
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| twigboy | May 15 2006, 07:27 PM Post #30 |
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Hey heavy, Don't forget Central MN In your ONLY clubs that get numbers. Our room is still very full even after state. If you look at the state results i think you will see alot of Central MN wrestlers there. A big thanks is in order to Dave and his coaching staff! |
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6:48 PM Jul 10
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6:48 PM Jul 10