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MN/USA Freestyle and Greco; The Pulse of Minnesota Wrestling
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 02:52 PM (5,154 Views)
geterdone
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Could the secret be COACHS? How can a small club in outstate MN compete and keep kids and parents interested in the spring and summer without coachs that have names? Wouldn't it be nice if other clubs other than those mentioned by twigboy could have Gopher or former Gopher wrestlers teaching or assisting the young and high school wrestlers. College team wrestlers do not have much to do with outstate MN programs other than an occasional pass through.
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DKURTH
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A large problem relative to the outstate coaches is the Minnesota State High School League. They will not allow high school coaches (paid or volunteer) to coach in the Spring when freestyle and greco roman is most active. In many cases the only coaches in town who understand freestyle and GR well enough to coach them are on the high school and Jr. High staff in one form or another.

The other part of the problem is related to ignorance and promotion. We have members on the board of directors of our local club telling young kids that they should not wrestle freestyle because it will just confuse them. That is a lack of a comprehensive understanding of the sport of wrestling. But, it is my job to educate and promote, and I need to do a better job of it in my own backyard. The result is a club that has gone from 130 kids and 40 wrestling in the state freestyle tournament, to a club that has 65 kids and 4 wrestling at FS state.

The 7 basic skills of wrestling: stance, motion, level change, penetration, lifting, back step and arch & turn are basic to the sport regardless of the style. The last three are developed more aggressively in freestyle and GR. That is a huge key to successful higher level wrestling.
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Lock and Load
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DKURTH
May 16 2006, 06:13 AM
In many cases the only coaches in town who understand freestyle and GR well enough to coach them are on the high school and Jr. High staff in one form or another.

The 7 basic skills of wrestling: stance, motion, level change, penetration, lifting, back step and arch & turn are basic to the sport regardless of the style. The last three are developed more aggressively in freestyle and GR. That is a huge key to successful higher level wrestling.

I have agreed with everything you have said this far Dan.....But this comment about the only HS coaches knowing freestyle and greco is crazy...Does Dar coach these styles effectively???? It is the many of the High School Coaches who feel inferior to the club coaches, and urge their kids to stay away!

I think the single most important thing to teach a young wrestler is WRESTLING, no matter what the style is. I think the rapid growth in NYWA and MYAS is the fact that kids today have many other sports to try. MN/USA Freestle and Greco tends to infringe on some of these kids other sports, where NYWA and MYAS both are taken care of during the winter and the only thing in their way......ICE FISHING!

My TWO cents!!!
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heavyweightdad
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Twig, when you say central MN, which clubs are you referring to? I guess I just looked at the names kids attached themselves to at the state tourney when I came up with the "heavyhitter" free/greco promoter clubs... The more involved the better! Glad you guys are having great draw numbers!!!!
Is central one specific club or a group of them that got together for Free/Greco, similar to Hi-Flyers?
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grizadams
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heavy dad,

central is a mixture of various kids from diferent schools , like I was saying earlier, It is very rare for a single school to have a freestyle club these days.

I also believe the high school coaches need to promote the freestyle program. and more than just talk. they need to get the info out on tournys and pump up the kids to do it.
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todd
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central is one club with kids from all over!very well run club lot of dedication from the coaches.The real name is central mn wrestling! practices are 7-9:00 tues and thursday at st johns wrestling room!Kids come from a 60 mile radius of st cloud!
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aftershock101
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Do all Cadets qualify for these camps?

And yes you can get these former college wrestlers to come to your room. All it takes is a check book. Not that I don't blame them, they need to make a living as well.

I watched all the MYAS, NYWA and the MN/USA wrestling this year. I like the idea of 2-7 matches. The idea is mat time. That is how we improve. I don't feel any of these tourneyment were watereddown. For the most part they seem to have a lot of the same kids.
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Ride Hard Boy
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DKURTH
May 16 2006, 06:13 AM
A large problem relative to the outstate coaches is the Minnesota State High School League. They will not allow high school coaches (paid or volunteer) to coach in the Spring when freestyle and greco roman is most active. In many cases the only coaches in town who understand freestyle and GR well enough to coach them are on the high school and Jr. High staff in one form or another.

The other part of the problem is related to ignorance and promotion. We have members on the board of directors of our local club telling young kids that they should not wrestle freestyle because it will just confuse them. That is a lack of a comprehensive understanding of the sport of wrestling. But, it is my job to educate and promote, and I need to do a better job of it in my own backyard. The result is a club that has gone from 130 kids and 40 wrestling in the state freestyle tournament, to a club that has 65 kids and 4 wrestling at FS state.

The 7 basic skills of wrestling: stance, motion, level change, penetration, lifting, back step and arch & turn are basic to the sport regardless of the style. The last three are developed more aggressively in freestyle and GR. That is a huge key to successful higher level wrestling.

Didn't they change that rule last year, I think they did. I think high school coaches can work with their kids now.
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DKURTH
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High school coaches can work with kids in the summer, but not in the spring when the bulk of the freestyle opens are wrestled.

Lock and Load,

My point was that in small towns, the people with freestyle experience are usually already involved with the high school program, elinminating them from being able to work with Jr. High and High School aged kids in the spring. You make another good point as well. There are some High School coaches that are either intimidated by the syles, or by the extra work in the off-season, so they avoid it all together by not supporting freestyle and GR.

Also, the state FS/GR tournament has been the same time of the year since I moved to the state. As far as I know the weather patterns have not changed, but the numbers have. I am not saying that baseball and nice weather do not play a role, I'm just questioning why such a big role in the state, in our region and in our club now.

Answer: Because people feel like there is a viable alternative now. And there really is not.
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Tiny Tornado
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No, they have NOT changed that rule- and in my opinion, it really hurts programs who would otherwise have a coach - there's a lot of HS coaches who would LOVE to keep their guys wrestling Freestyle/Greco after the HS season is over, but they can't be directly involved with coaching any JV or Varsity guys- YOUTH kids only-

one way to find a freestyle/greco coach is to contact the coach from the colleges-
Anoka has hired coaches from Augsburg for many years, as well as several guys from the U - we usually go back to the returning guy with the most seniority, and then he brings along a newer guy, then you just repeat that process-

college wrestlers are just like any other college student, always looking for ways to earn some money, you can contact them and ask what they would be willing to work for-
if you can't afford someone several times a week, or to show up at weekend tournaments, then try to have a guy show your other volunteer coaches some stuff, and work from there- maybe come once a week, or every two weeks- whatever you can afford- you can pay them a season commision, or pay them on a per/practice or per/tournament basis-
most local colleges will help you, if you contact the College's Head Coach, they are usually willing to post a notice in their locker room for you to let the guys know you're looking to hire them- many of these guys are going into teaching careers, and this gives them experience working with kids ....
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cwillaert
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aftershock101
May 16 2006, 08:23 AM
Do all Cadets qualify for these camps?

There used to be a strict qualification criteria. However at this time the criteria is pretty much having a USA card and having competed in a MN/USA event...in other words it's pretty much an open camp. Back a few years ago you had to place top 6 at state or top 3 at Northern Plains in a particular style to get invited to the camp for that style.
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cwillaert
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Tiny Tornado
May 16 2006, 10:03 AM
No, they have NOT changed that rule- and in my opinion, it really hurts programs who would otherwise have a coach - there's a lot of HS coaches who would LOVE to keep their guys wrestling Freestyle/Greco after the HS season is over, but they can't be directly involved with coaching any JV or Varsity guys- YOUTH kids only-

one way to find a freestyle/greco coach is to contact the coach from the colleges-
Anoka has hired coaches from Augsburg for many years, as well as several guys from the U - we usually go back to the returning guy with the most seniority, and then he brings along a newer guy, then you just repeat that process-

college wrestlers are just like any other college student, always looking for ways to earn some money, you can contact them and ask what they would be willing to work for-
if you can't afford someone several times a week, or to show up at weekend tournaments, then try to have a guy show your other volunteer coaches some stuff, and work from there- maybe come once a week, or every two weeks- whatever you can afford- you can pay them a season commision, or pay them on a per/practice or per/tournament basis-
most local colleges will help you, if you contact the College's Head Coach, they are usually willing to post a notice in their locker room for you to let the guys know you're looking to hire them- many of these guys are going into teaching careers, and this gives them experience working with kids ....

The response that somebody will post is that they don't live near any colleges. A very understandable issue...not everyone lives within 30 miles of the twin cities or a college of any kind. Mankato has not had very many college kids coaching it's club over the years and it's just a mile from where we practice. We also get kids travelling up to an hour just to attend our practices...because they want to practice.

The MSHSL says you can't be a coach of any sort (paid or volunteer) with a HS program AND coach that HS's wrestlers in FS/GR during the spring. In effect this rule is the MSHSL telling kids that they can't get better unless they can find someone else to coach. If you are a HS coach and one of your wrestler says "hey coach can we go work on my low singles" you are not allowed to do so. Even if the kid is the one approaching the coach.
This rule is especially horrible for out-state areas where it is tough to find coaches who are familiar with or comfortable with FS/GR. I know of a number of clubs that would have better numbers if one of the HS coaches could be involved. I know of some areas that don't have clubs but would.
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twigboy
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Heavy,

Like Todd and Griz said it is a regional team, similar to Hi-Flyers but they seem to lean towards a little bit older group. Great coaches and alot of tough dedicated wrestlers. The staff is always incouraging the wrestlers to take it to the next level i.e. regionals and nationals.

According to our stat sheet handed out after state we placed first in points in FS and GR for all ages combined despite having no bantam or peewee wrestlers. Between the two we had 9 1st place, 12 2nd place, 10 3rd place, 8 4th place, 3 5th place and 6 6th place finishers. Not to mention a room full of junior studs.
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Tiny Tornado
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just wanted to add another comment; the St Francis Gladiators are one of larger and most successful clubs right now, with a lot of very good wrestlers-
but they have no BIG NAME Ex-Gopher Wrestler coaching them, nor have they ever- they learn their stuff and then the volunteer coaches do all the work with the kids- it's not necessary to have a famous wrestler as a coach in order to get good results- it helps in the advertising of your Club, but is not a total necessity-

I'm sure if there are no College age wrestlers close to a town where there is a Club in need of Coaching, there must also be a way for a group of the volunteer Dads/coaches to go to where they can find the help- ask to visit another Club, and sit in and watch and learn what you need- go down to the U some night and watch those practices- there are ways to find out what you need and then bring it back home-

regarding the decline in the numbers this year- I would like to see a survey, where people could explain maybe why , if they have done freestyle/greco in the past-

what was their reason for NOT doing it this year ?
Was it because there was no Gopher Kid's Classic this year, so without already having the USA card they didn't want to get one ?
was it the last Folkstyle State Tournament and a problem you had with that ?
Is your wrestler now on a baseball team ? some other sport ?
Were the new rules too intimidating, or you had no one to show your group the changes ?


I think that kind of imformation could be helpful.
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cwillaert
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I heard a lot of people this year who said the new rules were a reason. But the vast majority of wrestlers, coaches and parents that I have spoken directly with who are wrestling under the new rules overall like them very much.

I know MN/USA lost a number of mat officials this year due to the new rules but the general consensus that I have gotten from officials is that these new ones are much easier to officiate. There is so much less "interpretation" than there was under the old ones, especially involving passivities since passivity no longer exists. I wish that those who chose not to officiate this year because of the new rules had given them a chance.
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lazy
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Tiny Tornado
May 16 2006, 01:23 PM
what was their reason for NOT doing it this year ?
Was it because there was no Gopher Kid's Classic this year, so without already having the USA card they didn't want to get one ?
was it the last Folkstyle State Tournament and a problem you had with that ?
Is your wrestler now on a baseball team ? some other sport ?
Were the new rules too intimidating, or you had no one to show your group the changes ?



Possibly too long of a folkstyle season. Not long ago freestyle started the weekend after the state tournament. There were at least two tournaments going on in two different parts of the state for eight weeks in a row. Wrestlers that practiced hard during the week had a place to compete wiithout driving too far and costing to much.

The numbers of wrestlers that were competing on weekends were over a thousand and with that came the unpaid, yet satisfied, volunteer pairers, tableworkers and officials.

The sport is going the way of gymnastics. The decisions made are great for the elite wrestler whose parents will get them where they need to go no matter what the cost but your school club is being eliminated along with the open tournaments.

USA might consider putting some of their efforts into building up the open tournaments so that those who choose to learn freestyle and Greco have a place to compete. If they build the open tournaments then the region tournaments will increase and the state tournament should return to being the premier wrestling event that it once was.

Orginally open tournaments were held to support freestyle and Greco and to get the wrestlers in your club matches. That all changed when some clubs started making large sums and then it didn't seem to be about volunteering so much as about making money. It hurt MN/USA when clubs started charging a fee at the door in a venue that encouraged all those attending to help out in some way and changed basically what the freestyle/Greco season and opens were all about and that was providing support for all the wrestlers and clubs not just the club that was providing the facility.
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guillotine1
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cwillaert
May 16 2006, 11:25 AM
Tiny Tornado
May 16 2006, 10:03 AM
No, they have NOT changed that rule- and in my opinion,  it really hurts programs who would otherwise have a coach - there's  a lot of HS coaches who would LOVE to keep their guys wrestling Freestyle/Greco after the HS season is over, but they can't be directly involved with coaching any JV or Varsity guys- YOUTH kids only-

one way to find a freestyle/greco coach is to contact the coach from the colleges-
Anoka has hired coaches from Augsburg for many years, as well as several guys from the U -  we usually go back to the returning guy with the most seniority, and then he brings along a newer guy, then you just repeat that process-

college wrestlers are just like any other college student, always looking for ways to earn some money, you can contact them and ask what they would be willing to work for-
if you can't afford someone several times a week, or to show up at weekend tournaments, then try to have a guy show your other volunteer coaches some stuff, and work from there- maybe come once a week, or every two weeks- whatever you can afford- you can pay them a season commision, or pay them on a per/practice or per/tournament basis-
most local colleges will help you, if you contact the College's Head Coach, they are usually willing to post a notice in their locker room for you to let the guys know you're looking to hire them- many of these guys are going into teaching careers, and this gives them experience working with kids ....

The response that somebody will post is that they don't live near any colleges. A very understandable issue...not everyone lives within 30 miles of the twin cities or a college of any kind. Mankato has not had very many college kids coaching it's club over the years and it's just a mile from where we practice. We also get kids travelling up to an hour just to attend our practices...because they want to practice.

The MSHSL says you can't be a coach of any sort (paid or volunteer) with a HS program AND coach that HS's wrestlers in FS/GR during the spring. In effect this rule is the MSHSL telling kids that they can't get better unless they can find someone else to coach. If you are a HS coach and one of your wrestler says "hey coach can we go work on my low singles" you are not allowed to do so. Even if the kid is the one approaching the coach.
This rule is especially horrible for out-state areas where it is tough to find coaches who are familiar with or comfortable with FS/GR. I know of a number of clubs that would have better numbers if one of the HS coaches could be involved. I know of some areas that don't have clubs but would.

New rule: I beleive high school coaches can now coach during some off-season months.

MSHSL Athletic Camp and Clinic - Questions and Answers

See summer MSHSL waiver form (under General Forms)
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cwillaert
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Coaches can coach camps during the summer. That has been in place for a number of years. But a coach cannot coach his kids outside of the wrestling season at any time during the school year.
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heavyweightdad
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What about HS coaching in the summer? For example, Freestyle Natls?
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cwillaert
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That is allowed. The summer coaching waiver covers it. 4th Friday of May through July 31st is pretty much ok. It's the period of time from the day after the state tournament through May 31st (primary FS/GR seasons) that are the issue.
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lazy
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DKURTH
May 16 2006, 06:13 AM
But, it is my job to educate and promote, and I need to do a better job of it in my own backyard.

.

It is hard to promote a sport that only has only a few venues for competing. What other sport trains the athletes well and then only provides a few weekends to compete. Even the clubs with high profile wrestlers have seen a decline. Seriously it is hard to promote a sport when you offer great coaches and practices but only a few places to try out what you are learning. Kids will train hard but they do it to compete. The board needs to put its efforts on returning the opens. The board needs to realize that not all of those who try freestyle and Greco compete at state, regional nationals and nationals especially if they are new to the sport.

If the board puts its efforts into the opens so that clubs could promote the sport indicating the opportunities to wrestle then the number of wrestlers competing at regions will increase and then we could see state return to the premier venue it once was.
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DKURTH
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I agree. Also the state needs to support the outstate programs and regions by having weekends where there are tournaments in the North and South, but none in the metro. If they don't, then the North and South regions and clubs have no motivation to put on a tournament that draws 100 kids. It is an easy drive from the metro to Mankato, Rochester or Owatonna (just as an example in the South). But, if there is a tournament in Eagan or Forest Lake the same day, no one will make the drive to outstate tourneys.

There should be freestyle and GR opens from the first weekend after the high school state tournament to the weekend before regional nationals. If strategically planned, all of these tournaments would be well attended.
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heavyweightdad
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I agree 100%
I also like having BOTH free/greco same day. (Like Crosby is doing) And having 2 metro tourneys on the same day is just poor planning, communication is essential between host clubs!
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grizadams
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how did the crosby tourny go with both on the same day was there any problems, just curious?
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lazy
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DKURTH
May 19 2006, 06:36 AM
If strategically planned, all of these tournaments would be well attended.

Planning is the key. I'm not to sure about not having a tournament in the metro area is the right idea. There are kids whose parents can't and will not drive more than an hour to wrestle and the board needs to support them just as much as those who live out of the metro area. Those are the wrestlers that USA has lost and they could just possibly be the future Olympians, or the official that we need, or the table worker or pairer.

Again planning is the key and those from less populated areas that are further from the cities need to be creative and come up with a way that encourages wrestlers to drive and not forces them.

For instance Mankato should invite certain clubs to come down, guarantee a number of matches if they drive down, ask certain wrestlers to show up and let people know who will be there, encourage a couple of Iowa teams to show up and your guanteed to be the place where the competitive wrestlers will want to be, offer a clinic while brackets are being paired. Northfield use to offer a pancake breakfast and that got wrestlers to drive down.

Forest Lake is far for many in the south yet people showed up because it was well run and they had mini donuts. Really the mini donuts gave it a state fair feel where you planned to go every year to get your mini donuts. Of course that was also where the coaches wanted to go.

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farmer
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As far as finding coaches for outstate clubs, they could check with the college wrestlers at many of the Community Colleges, or Division ll or lll colleges. I know Ridgwater, Itasca, Mankato, and Moorhead all have some quality wrestlers with freestyle and greco experience.

Division l Gopher wrestlers are not the only good coaches out there.

The real problem is not as easy as many people like to make it sound. It is not any one reason that's been mentioned, but a combination of these reasons that interest and attendance has fallen. No easy answer here. Lets not blame the MN/USA for the problem, they can only do so much with the volunteers they have.

What the wrestling community needs is more volunteers, in more regions, stepping up to form clubs, hire coaches, and keep it going. All to often, its the same people doing all the work, and that is'nt just in wrestling clubs. Look at the Boy Scouts, 4-H, JayCees, or any club you want. It's always the same people doing the work. More volunteers are needed in any organization. NOT MORE BLAME.

More active clubs=more open tournaments=more participation.

There is nothing we can do about children picking track or baseball as a Spring sport, other than provide them with an attractive option. There is nothing we can do about children who need to work for some cash. There is not a lot we can do about the economy. Let's face it, we are in MN, and fishing season is as big as any sport in the State. We only get a few nice months of weather, many families want to send that time on something else while the weather is good. Maybe MN freestyle and greco wrestling is just in a down cycle. It could come back on it's own as long as we keep providing the opportunities, and don't let it die.

More people need to get involved and keep providing the opportunties.
I went on long enough. Stop the blame game, and thanks to all of the volunteers.
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crdirector
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MN USA has tried to cater to those outstate. I think the southern part of the state gets good support through Rochester and Owatonna. USA tried to have a big event (in folkstyle, no less) in Bemidji and it was Poo Pooed by the regional clubs (no disrespect to Bemidjis efforts) and had to be cancelled due to no registrations. What do you want. I hear great ideas posted on the forum here about scheduling tourneys and co-ordinating events with other clubs coming from individuals whose programs have never had a tourney. Many times it is difficult to secure the facility and get your own club in order to run a tourney much less bringing the ideas of 3-4 other clubs into the mix. Ever hear of too many cooks spoiling the broth.

I thank MN USA for what they do for MN wrestling. They do the most to develop our kids into national caliber athletes, and they do it on a volunteer basis. If you really want to make a difference and improve things step up and go to a board meeting offer to be a director of an age group, etc. I have not done this my self and until I decide to I will not say anything negative about the efforts these fine volunteers put in. Thanks again to all at MN USA
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Tiny Tornado
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grizadams,
the Crosby tournament is tomorrow- they are doing 4-man brackets for BOTH the Freestyle and Greco, so it will be easy to set it up- also I believe they are going to try and send the same groups to the same mat for the duration, I expect that to help keep everyone in on where they are wrestling and when, should run very smooth- those planning on going to Northern Plains have a chance to get a few more matches in, so come on up and bring your fishin' gear, it's going to be a nice weekend.....

I think lazy and others make a good point, we need MORE Open tournaments, and in more locations- what the best way to coordinate that is, I'm not sure-
I think mn/usa has already taken the step of moving the Folkstyle State UP another week ( or two ?) so that should help add in some more space to the schedule- I know I for one would be willing to drive longer distances for more tournaments, it would be nice to see more of them on the schedule in some new places-
would it work to add a few more weeks at the end, or are there too many kids who need to get to work at the family resort, etc ? maybe the first weekend in June instead the middle of May ?
I know there is Prom, and Open Houses, and stuff like that...seems like it's always something that clashes with what you want to try-
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lazy
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Tiny Tornado
May 19 2006, 10:16 AM
I think mn/usa has already taken the step of moving the Folkstyle State UP another week ( or two ?) so that should help add in some more space to the schedule-

The changed folkstyle up one weekend but then changed freestyle up two weekends.

In the past this was the freestyle state tournament weekend. It worked out well for years. The state tournament does not include juniors, so prom is not a concern to return it to the middle of May. Having freestyle state earlier this year caused a conflict with Jr. Northern Plains and caused the clubs to provide coaches in more than one place and did not allow the juniors to support the wrestlers they are mentoring. Having two major tournaments in one weekend is not a good idea because it reduces the workers that are available, the pool of officials, table workers and pairers are divided between two venues.

What appears to be happening is that MN/USA is making decisions that are similar to some of the states that produce elite national wrestlers. These states have a few clubs where a few wrestlers train to compete nationally. If that is what the those who buy the cards want the direction to be then the board is doing a good job. If the goal is a non profit organization that provides the opportunity for all those who want to wrestle, a venue to wrestle, and to support organizations that want to promote the sport of freestyle and Greco wrestling then the board is not doing a good job. The board has clearly made decisions that have ultimately resulted in the reduction in the numbers of athletes that wrestle and should work hard to rectify the situation.

The Twin Cities has in the past supported two to four tournaments in one weekend. The tournaments were properly located on the opposite sides of the cities. The interest in the sport was there and with proper planning by the board it will return. The board needs to have tournament information in place soon so that clubs can begin passing out information about the sport and the opportunities, hopefully clubs can promote the sport indicating to those interested that there will be 8 weekends available to compete locally for the 2006-2007 season. The sport can and will grow if that is what the board wants.
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Lazy, I think you are partially right. The elite kids are definately using MN/USA's services. I was down at Monday's practice and watched 4 high school state champs wrestling in one group together! Personally, I'm pretty much tired of begging wrestlers to join the program. I think the old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" fits well here. I know this: Mn/USA welcomes ALL wrestlers. Maybe some of these clubs and coaches and wrestlers that don't use Mn/USA needs to figure it out. If it comes down to Mn/USA "only being for the elite", who made that choice?
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