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MN/USA Freestyle and Greco; The Pulse of Minnesota Wrestling
Topic Started: May 12 2006, 02:52 PM (5,152 Views)
raiders
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DKURTH
May 16 2006, 06:13 AM
The other part of the problem is related to ignorance and promotion.  We have members on the board of directors of our local club telling young kids that they should not wrestle freestyle because it will just confuse them.  That is a lack of a comprehensive understanding of the sport of wrestling.

Dan, I hope you apologize to all the people that are on your board of directors. They are volunteers to the sport and for you to attack them in an open forum is just wrong.

Maybe you are a wrestling GOD, but I would guess the others are on the board because their kids enjoy wrestling or maybe they enjoyed wrestling at one point.

I am not going to get into the MNUSA / NYWA argument because my kids have done both and enjoyed both.
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Stizo
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raiders
May 26 2006, 07:48 AM
DKURTH
May 16 2006, 06:13 AM
The other part of the problem is related to ignorance and promotion.  We have members on the board of directors of our local club telling young kids that they should not wrestle freestyle because it will just confuse them.  That is a lack of a comprehensive understanding of the sport of wrestling.

Dan, I hope you apologize to all the people that are on your board of directors. They are volunteers to the sport and for you to attack them in an open forum is just wrong.

Maybe you are a wrestling GOD, but I would guess the others are on the board because their kids enjoy wrestling or maybe they enjoyed wrestling at one point or still do.

I am not going to get into the MNUSA / NYWA argument because my kids have done both and enjoyed both.

raiders, I disagree. Dan should not apologize to anyone. His point is very well stated, was not an attack on any one person and supports the issue we are discussing. If someone takes it personal, then they should look into their own insecurities.

Dan is right. It is pure ignorance and irresponsible guidance to instruct an athlete not to wrestle freestyle or greco because it will "confuse them." Kids don't have much time in the sport and to steal time from them with such advise is tragic. I see more and more "coaches" coaching kids based on their opinion and not on the science of the sport or the kids own technical strengths. I think everyone should step back and think about what Dan is actually saying here, he is right. No room for posturing on this subject right now. Such action is myopic and distructive to the growth of our program.

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raiders
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Stizo I respectfully disagree with you - he did attack members of the board saying that they had a "lack of a comprehensive understanding of the sport of wrestling"

Do you know the kids that were told not to wrestle freestyle or greco? Do you know the members of the board?

I would say they were told that because it would confuse them. These kids probably were k-3rd graders and if I had to guess it probably would confuse some of the younger kids.

Just like everybody else on here Dan has an opinion and everybody thinks their opinion is the right one and should be the way to go.

Ask Dan about Class A schools and what he thinks of the "Class A moves" - I am sure there are a lot of Class A coaches that don't feel their programs are third tier because of the size of their schools.

If the whole idea about freestyle and greco is mat time NYWA does extend the season for some kids and for most younger kids they have had enough wrestling by the end of the NYWA tourny. For the older kids MNUSA may be a better option if they want National experience.

Sure Greco and Freestyle can help kids become better wrestlers but I know some wrestlers that really like other sports also.
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Stizo
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I respect your position, I just disagree. I don't think one needs to know the kids or the people on the board. I sure hope there are not people on the board of MN/USA who would give such ill advise. If there is, then their intentions are self serving and not for the overall good. Unfortunately it is difficult to find volunteers who are wholly motivated for the overall good of a cause.
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todd
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Usa gives you alot of mat time and you get to practice till august,wich helps a kid stay somewhat conditioned and not nearly as rusty as the kids who say do nothing after folkstyle season!Again i stress NYWA is a tourny a great tourny.USA is a club with tournies nation wide ,with practices that train and mentally help kids focus, and 90 percent of what is learned goes hand and hand with folkstyle.Not bashing NYWA if thats your thing , But till they have camps ,practices and go past 8th grade you cant even put them in the same league! Sorry but it is true and i think ,my personal opinion is( if you arent doing freestyle or greco you are holding your kid back at being a better folkstyle wrestler)Not trying to fight or start anything but I think its true!
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mndawg
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IMONTOPSTEP
May 15 2006, 08:58 AM
I know this arguement has gone on since the inception of NYWA - my boys have participated in both, one really enjoying freestyle and Greco and one that likes folkstyle more.  Without a doubt NYWA runs a better tournament - I don't think that there is an arguement about that.  But I have several thoughts that banter back and forth in my head on ways for my boys to get better, and I contemplate these different thoughts.

1.  Do all the kids get better at folkstyle by wrestling freestyle?  Or are just the good Folkstyle wrestlers wrestling freestyle?
2.  Everyone talks about freestyle getting you better for Folkstyle, then why don't we just practice folkstyle more, then for sure you will get better at folkstyle.
3.  Many kids wrestle 60-80 matches of folkstyle and then wrestle (maybe 20) freestyle matches in a year.  Is a boy that wrestled 100 folkstyle, and no freestyle - now behind the curve? 
4.  (Wrestling all year) I can see the benefit to the 1% that wrestle all year long and plan on going to college some day to wrestle - but for 99% of these kids - that is not the case.
5.  I think that learning Greco would be a more beneficial series of moves to add to a Folkstyle arsenal then freestyle (for upper body)?? 
6.  If I can't clasp, do a gut wrench, reverse gut wrench, ankle lace, or front head lock for points in Folkstyle - how will learning these moves help me in high school?
7.  I am seriously trying to figure out ways to help my boys continue to get better - but the best answers I hear from is "they will learn to shoot better" - "they will learn balance" - can' this be learned at folkstyle too?
8.  We have placed or won freestyle state every year we have participated - and will most likely continue to wrestle freestyle - I am really just asking questions, to try and find a answer that "turns on the lightbulb" and says oh - yea - that is what the benefit is of doing freestyle vs more folkstyle.
9.  I have no hopes that my sons will ever wrestle Olympics or Internationally (not saying things couldn't change - but I have not set the bar that high for them at this point)
10.  Any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks!

I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier but, when I see a team that doesn't spend anytime on greco going against a team with several greco wrestlers on it during the high school season it almost always equals point, back points from the feet. I also see freestyle tilts being used to score points.

My point is, even if your kid isn't trying to be a star at freestyle or greco it will definately help them to recognize what is happening on the mat during folkstyle. I think we have all seen the look on a wrestlers face as he hits the mat and thinks "What just happened?"
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Stizo
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mndawg
May 26 2006, 09:06 AM
IMONTOPSTEP
May 15 2006, 08:58 AM
I know this arguement has gone on since the inception of NYWA - my boys have participated in both, one really enjoying freestyle and Greco and one that likes folkstyle more.  Without a doubt NYWA runs a better tournament - I don't think that there is an arguement about that.  But I have several thoughts that banter back and forth in my head on ways for my boys to get better, and I contemplate these different thoughts.

1.   Do all the kids get better at folkstyle by wrestling freestyle?  Or are just the good Folkstyle wrestlers wrestling freestyle?
2.   Everyone talks about freestyle getting you better for Folkstyle, then why don't we just practice folkstyle more, then for sure you will get better at folkstyle.
3.  Many kids wrestle 60-80 matches of folkstyle and then wrestle (maybe 20) freestyle matches in a year.  Is a boy that wrestled 100 folkstyle, and no freestyle - now behind the curve? 
4.   (Wrestling all year) I can see the benefit to the 1% that wrestle all year long and plan on going to college some day to wrestle - but for 99% of these kids - that is not the case.
5.  I think that learning Greco would be a more beneficial series of moves to add to a Folkstyle arsenal then freestyle (for upper body)?? 
6.  If I can't clasp, do a gut wrench, reverse gut wrench, ankle lace, or front head lock for points in Folkstyle - how will learning these moves help me in high school?
7.  I am seriously trying to figure out ways to help my boys continue to get better - but the best answers I hear from is "they will learn to shoot better" - "they will learn balance" - can' this be learned at folkstyle too?
8.  We have placed or won freestyle state every year we have participated - and will most likely continue to wrestle freestyle - I am really just asking questions, to try and find a answer that "turns on the lightbulb" and says oh - yea - that is what the benefit is of doing freestyle vs more folkstyle.
9.  I have no hopes that my sons will ever wrestle Olympics or Internationally (not saying things couldn't change - but I have not set the bar that high for them at this point)
10.  Any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks!

I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier but, when I see a team that doesn't spend anytime on greco going against a team with several greco wrestlers on it during the high school season it almost always equals point, back points from the feet. I also see freestyle tilts being used to score points.

My point is, even if your kid isn't trying to be a star at freestyle or greco it will definately help them to recognize what is happening on the mat during folkstyle. I think we have all seen the look on a wrestlers face as he hits the mat and thinks "What just happened?"

Very well stated.

Teaching kids technique that allows them to be the best they can be, isn't that what it is all about? Kids who are deverse in their repertoire seem to excel. More importantly, it gives them confidence. I think many parents and coaches miss this.
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DKURTH
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Raiders,

I apologize for absolutely nothing that I have said. Also, you are living in fantasy land if you think that Class A schools have not become second tier programs. Put the class A state champion team against either AA or AAA and it would not even be entertaining enough to watch. The difference: AA and AAA team members wrestle a lot of freestyle and greco roman in the off-season.

And, I am a wrestling GOD. Maybe if people would spend more time listening to me instead of justifying their own failures they would be better off. Unless you cannot tell, I have had it with being the nice go along to get along guy. You can consider this a permanent change!
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raiders
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"The difference: AA and AAA team members wrestle a lot of freestyle and greco roman in the off-season." lets look at this - most of the AAA schools are in the TC area - how much money does MNUSA pump into the metro compared to outstate?

"Put the class A state champion team against either AA or AAA and it would not even be entertaining enough to watch. " - You are living in a fantasy world if you think that wrestling freestyle and greco is the reason these schools would beat up on a A school - how about just plain numbers of kids that the AAA schools can pick from compared to a A school where the enrollment numbers are not there?

"Also, you are living in fantasy land if you think that Class A schools have not become second tier programs." - I really disagree with this - How can you say you want a better program in Minnesota and then go beat up all the A schools by saying they are second tier programs because they can't compete with a AAA school - this logic of yours doesn't make sense to me at all.

How could a school that has say 500 total kids (grades 7-12) compete with a school that has 500 in a senior class? There is a reason the schools are broke up into classes and it doesn't have anything to do with wrestling freestyle and greco.


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lilmatdog
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I think many of the A schools can compete with the Mpls and St. Paul schools, don't they have at least 500 in their graduation classes? Edina and Bloomtoning Jefferson have huge class size and no programs.

The cities do have the ability to offer more competition during the spring/summer seasons in practice. Through MN/USA kids from all over the cities can practice against each other, even if no one else on their team is putting time in on the mat during the spring/summer. Can a small school say that? I think that is the difference.
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DKURTH
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WRONG AGAIN

Why could Canby compete with every school in the state, including the metro, 20 years ago and now they cannot? Please move on to a topic that you understand and have a chance to argue.
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lilmatdog
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DKURTH
May 26 2006, 01:14 PM
WRONG AGAIN

Why could Canby compete with every school in the state, including the metro, 20 years ago and now they cannot? Please move on to a topic that you understand and have a chance to argue.

Who are you arguing with?
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DKURTH
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Not You Matdog
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todd
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DKURTH
May 26 2006, 12:23 PM
Raiders,

I apologize for absolutely nothing that I have said.  Also, you are living in fantasy land if you think that Class A schools have not become second tier programs.  Put the class A state champion team against either AA or AAA and it would not even be entertaining enough to watch.  The difference:  AA and AAA team members wrestle a lot of freestyle and greco roman in the off-season.

And, I am a wrestling GOD.  Maybe if people would spend more time listening to me instead of justifying their own failures they would be better off.  Unless you cannot tell, I have had it with being the nice go along to get along guy.  You can consider this a permanent change!

kurth i agreed with you other posts now you bring up the classA thing! pierz beat forestlake,milaca, little falls,litchfield,bold ,woodbury,cambridge just to list a couple and wasnt pierz the 5th place A team?And individually a,aa,aaa means squat if the individual is working hard and doing all the extras!
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lilmatdog
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Your being a little harsh as well Todd. Kurth was saying thr top teams in a round-robin wouldn't be close... or at least that is how I understood it. Remember these results?

St. Michael-Albertville 40, Pierz 15
Owatonna 47, Pierz 24

25 and 23 point losses.
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DKURTH
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Thank you matdog, that is exactly what I meant. I am done with this topic. I started it and stated what I think, and now I am just tired of it. If people don't get it, they don't get it. I will just continue to fight the battle for Minnesota wrestling and our program and leave this board to the fans.

Please don't respond to me on this topic, because I am gone... Permanently from this board.
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todd
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lilmatdog
May 26 2006, 02:19 PM
Your being a little harsh as well Todd. Kurth was saying thr top teams in a round-robin wouldn't be close... or at least that is how I understood it. Remember these results?

St. Michael-Albertville 40, Pierz 15
Owatonna 47, Pierz 24

25 and 23 point losses.

So you have a team that place 5th against the # 1 team in the state!And i know plenty kids from A that freestyle and greco! pierz in class aa would of took second! ;)

canby in triple A would of place top 5! :D


Oh i am sorry mr kurth, but really sick of you AAAandAA people looking down your noses at us poor class A folk! :angry:

And most A schools dont have a 100 kids per grade thats the big advantage team wise aa , AAA :unsure: mite have!

now back to freestyle if you dont want mat time dont do it if you want to get better and more instinctive do it !
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lilmatdog
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AAA vs. AA vs. A is a different topic.

I think mat time matters, I think exposure to different styles is important.
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todd
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todd
May 26 2006, 09:52 AM
Usa gives you alot of mat time and you get to practice till august,wich helps a kid stay somewhat conditioned and not nearly as rusty as the kids who say do nothing after folkstyle season!Again i stress NYWA is a tourny a great tourny.USA is a club with tournies nation wide ,with practices that train and mentally help kids focus, and 90 percent of what is learned goes hand and hand with folkstyle.Not bashing NYWA if thats your thing , But till they have camps ,practices and go past 8th grade you cant even put them in the same league! Sorry but it is true and i think ,my personal opinion is( if you arent doing freestyle or greco you are holding your kid back at being a better folkstyle wrestler)Not trying to fight or start anything but I think its true!

yes exactly dog, lets get back on tract!
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raiders
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DKURTH
May 26 2006, 01:34 PM
Thank you matdog, that is exactly what I meant.  I am done with this topic.  I started it and stated what I think, and now I am just tired of it.  If people don't get it, they don't get it.  I will just continue to fight the battle for Minnesota wrestling and our program and leave this board to the fans.

Please don't respond to me on this topic, because I am gone...  Permanently from this board.

Sounds like somebody needs a nap because he is a little crabby. If people don't agree with you that doesn't mean you have to get the undies in a bunch and leave.

People have a right to their opinions just like you Mr. Kurth!

I don't share your opinion of you being above the members of your local wrestling clubs board and I certainly don't share yours on AAA being better than A schools.

I guess this is what I hear from you - you would be above taking a head coaching job at a class A school because in your opinion they don't have quality wrestlers.

This is to bad because if you are really dedicated to the sport maybe you would want to take on a smaller school and try to get a program back on track instead of trashing the small schools, like you have done in the past.
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