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Apple Valley Freestyle; Nice Turnout!
Topic Started: Apr 13 2008, 09:43 AM (5,210 Views)
lilmatdog
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I wonder if this women when she was reffing, and I believe she did even while pregnant, was ever screamed at... I bet she was. How many on here think she pushed the coach/parent who was yelling at her? I don't think I have ever heard about it if it did happen. How many on here think told the mother/father who was arguing with her that their kid was a "horses__t wrestler"? I doubt this women ever said that to a parent. People might be offended by inner city kids but I think the kids have every right to go to these tournament and Minneapolis needs the kids to participate in the spring/summer in order to get better. I think it is great that this lady is giving to wrestling like she has for several years now as a coach, table worker, a ref, and transportation for these wrestlers.

Yes, ref's have to be protected or they would be the object of even more abuse but they should also set the example rather than pushing parent, instigating physical behavior with parents or bad mouthing the wrestlers.

I wonder what people would be saying if both sides of the story were told in detail.
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Mat732
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lilmatdog
Apr 17 2008, 05:06 PM

I wonder what people would be saying if both sides of the story were told in detail.


I know what I would be saying:

If someone physically struck someone else, I don't care what was said, that person should be arrested!
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lilmatdog
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Mat732
Apr 17 2008, 08:03 PM
lilmatdog
Apr 17 2008, 05:06 PM

I wonder what people would be saying if both sides of the story were told in detail.


I know what I would be saying:

If someone physically struck someone else, I don't care what was said, that person should be arrested!

I agree, the fact that the ref pusher this lady means he was the first to lay hands on and should be arrested. That is what you meant, right? In this day and age your kids would be expelled for pushing someone else, I wonder where they learn that behavior.
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Chris Shiherlis
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lilmatdog
Apr 17 2008, 08:22 PM
Mat732
Apr 17 2008, 08:03 PM
lilmatdog
Apr 17 2008, 05:06 PM

I wonder what people would be saying if both sides of the story were told in detail.


I know what I would be saying:

If someone physically struck someone else, I don't care what was said, that person should be arrested!

I agree, the fact that the ref pusher this lady means he was the first to lay hands on and should be arrested. That is what you meant, right? In this day and age your kids would be expelled for pushing someone else, I wonder where they learn that behavior.

Wrong. If somebody approaches you in a threatening manner you can have physical contact with them. The grey area becomes what constitutes a threatening manner.

My answer to that is walking out on the playing surface (mat) qualifies.

Again, if she wasn't prepared for the outcome (having something said to her she didn't like) of the confrontation she should not have engaged in it.

I hate this crap. Somebody runs their mouth, somebody responds, the escalate to the point of striking somebody and now they are the victim.

C'mon people. This is asinine.
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lilmatdog
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So I push you, tell you that your kid is a horses__t wrestler, you pop me and you go to jail... I guess I just have to disagree with your assessment that the person who instigates the violence gets off scott free. I think that would be a travesty.

To say that stepping on the mat is an act of violence is also a huge stretch. I have read all of your post on the matter and know that you strongly side with the ref, almost to the point of blindness but I also know that there are two sides to every story and only one side is being presented here. It still takes two to have a disagreement whether it is verbal, in writing, or on the mat. Everything I have heard says there were no innocent people involved in that fiasco.

The lady is no weekend taxi who has never reffed before either, I think she would agree that you don't strike a ref even if you disagree with them. I think when he got physical he lost the protection the stripe shirt should insure.
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Chris Shiherlis
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lilmatdog
Apr 17 2008, 09:27 PM
So I push you, tell you that your kid is a horses__t wrestler, you pop me and you go to jail... I guess I just have to disagree with your assessment that the person who instigates the violence gets off scott free. I think that would be a travesty.

To say that stepping on the mat is an act of violence is also a huge stretch. I have read all of your post on the matter and know that you strongly side with the ref, almost to the point of blindness but I also know that there are two sides to every story and only one side is being presented here. It still takes two to have a disagreement whether it is verbal, in writing, or on the mat. Everything I have heard says there were no innocent people involved in that fiasco.

The lady is no weekend taxi who has never reffed before either, I think she would agree that you don't strike a ref even if you disagree with them. I think when he got physical he lost the protection the stripe shirt should insure.

Yes. I side with the ref but I also side with sanity.

Tell me something. Had she never initiated the confrontation what would have happened.

I don't want to hear about the call on the mat, etc.

I want you to tell me had she not initiated the confrontation what would have happened.

Simple question. Answer, please?
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pazz7
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lilmatdog, I always respect your opinion on here and know that you have been around and know your stuff. Having said that...yes, there are always two sides to a story. But, when I read that this same parent has had MANY behavior issues at MANY different tournaments, I have a hard time believing that we can blame the ref for anything. I did not see this incident occur(as most reading this thread didn't either), but hitting someone in the face, for whatever reason, is not acceptable. I have seen refs get screamed at, swore at, poked and slapped and you don't see them punching the parents. It should go both ways. We are talking about what we are teaching our kids, and the fact that they are seeing this behavior. It should not be tolerated from the kids, the refs, or the parents. That is the bottom line.
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RuleTHEmat
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Did not see the incident, just heard, but did have a wrestler at his mat that day. Arrogant ref, who seemed to have a comment for something all the time. Could see, if someone said something to him, he would have something smart to say back. No reason to physically attack him, but yes two sides to every story.

Did see the other incident, Dad called the Lady ref a MF***! I can see she felt very threatened, guys came over to calm the situation, told him to leave, he didn't...but by that time the situation cooled down some, although when his son was done, had some choice words leaving. He was not escorted out...probably would have really blown out of proportion if that would have happened. Believe me, if something did happen, I know about 10 dads that were ready!!
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hockeymom
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There was two seperate out of control incidents?
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RuleTHEmat
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Yes. Heard about the 1st, and witnessed the other.
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Chris Shiherlis
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RockBass3
Apr 18 2008, 08:11 AM
Yes. Heard about the 1st, and witnessed the other.

My understanding is they were a woman, then a man from the same club.....

Seriously. Being a smart a$$ never helps but the reality of things is we as parents, coaches and administrators cannot formulate a scenario where striking an official, or for that matter anybody else, at an event is acceptable.
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HDPOLFOOTBASEWREST
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These are Elementary school kids geez
let us save it for Varsity then we can all act silly GEEZ!
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lilmatdog
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pazz7
Apr 18 2008, 07:30 AM
lilmatdog, I always respect your opinion on here and know that you have been around and know your stuff. Having said that...yes, there are always two sides to a story. But, when I read that this same parent has had MANY behavior issues at MANY different tournaments, I have a hard time believing that we can blame the ref for anything. I did not see this incident occur(as most reading this thread didn't either), but hitting someone in the face, for whatever reason, is not acceptable. I have seen refs get screamed at, swore at, poked and slapped and you don't see them punching the parents. It should go both ways. We are talking about what we are teaching our kids, and the fact that they are seeing this behavior. It should not be tolerated from the kids, the refs, or the parents. That is the bottom line.

I have seen many times where a ref has been abused as well but I have never seen a ref initiate a physical confrontation by pushing a women. I think your sentence that I put in bold is pretty accurate but you could use either of the endings, the one you did or mine where I have never seen a ref get physical.

I am not condoning the violence but the difference is I am not condoning the violence by either party. If you get physical with someone and they get physical back... deal with it. Perhaps there was a tournament director there and the ref should have simply brought the attention to them if they didn't feel they warranted such verbal abuse... By no means should the ref have initiated and physical violence.

Chris Shiherlis, Are you serious? Are you suggesting that by questioning the call she deserved to be pushed? Just in case your really serious if she would have sat on her hands and said nothing then nothing would have happened I would imagine.

My question for you... If the ref would not have initiated the physical violence what would have happened?

[/COLOR]
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Chris Shiherlis
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lilmatdog
Apr 18 2008, 12:17 PM
pazz7
Apr 18 2008, 07:30 AM
lilmatdog, I always respect your opinion on here and know that you have been around and know your stuff. Having said that...yes, there are always two sides to a story. But, when I read that this same parent has had MANY behavior issues at MANY different tournaments, I have a hard time believing that we can blame the ref for anything. I did not see this incident occur(as most reading this thread didn't either), but hitting someone in the face, for whatever reason, is not acceptable. I have seen refs get screamed at, swore at, poked and slapped and you don't see them punching the parents. It should go both ways. We are talking about what we are teaching our kids, and the fact that they are seeing this behavior. It should not be tolerated from the kids, the refs, or the parents. That is the bottom line.

I have seen many times where a ref has been abused as well but I have never seen a ref initiate a physical confrontation by pushing a women. I think your sentence that I put in bold is pretty accurate but you could use either of the endings, the one you did or mine where I have never seen a ref get physical.

I am not condoning the violence but the difference is I am not condoning the violence by either party. If you get physical with someone and they get physical back... deal with it. Perhaps there was a tournament director there and the ref should have simply brought the attention to them if they didn't feel they warranted such verbal abuse... By no means should the ref have initiated and physical violence.

Chris Shiherlis, Are you serious? Are you suggesting that by questioning the call she deserved to be pushed? Just in case your really serious if she would have sat on her hands and said nothing then nothing would have happened I would imagine.

My question for you... If the ref would not have initiated the physical violence what would have happened?

[/COLOR]

You are doing a quasi clever job of twisting this around and I anticipated you would turn this into a chicken or the egg thing. You did not answer my question in the context it was presented so now I guess I have to start repeating myself.

I will state it again for what I believe is the third time.

If the woman was not prepared for the consequences of the confrontation SHE initiated, she should not have done it.

I can tell you right now if somebody gets in my face, is raising their voice and being a general a$$hole, man or woman I will ask them to step back. If they do not I will then push them back fully aware of what may happen then.

The difference is if it is a man he will get tossed on his head. If it is a woman it will be as delicately as I can without dliuting the point I am trying to convey which is don't get in my space because if you do so in a threatening/confrontational manner I will react violently regardless of who you are.

I am sick and tired of people acting like they can do whatever they want and there will be no consequences. There is absolutely no reason to flip out, come on the mat and confront somebody the way this went down. In particular at a kids tournament. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Kids learn this behavior.

Not to mention I have gotten numerous PM's and had personal conversation with people telling me this is nothing new for this woman or this grou.

This amounts to you spending time attempting to defend behavior which is indefensible.

Again. Parent/coaches need to learn to behave like adults and provide a good example.
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TakeEm'Down
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I'm sure that the woman who is at the center of this topic is most likely reading this thread. She's had a week to cool off and reflect on the situation. Wouldn't it be great if she stepped up and just said, "Look, I made a huge mistake. I sincerely apologize to the ref that I hit, I apologize to all the young wrestlers that witnessed this behavior. It is not the way adults should behave. I apologize to all the other parents that had to explain to their children what happened. The kids in my club work hard and they deserve better behavior from thier leaders at these tournaments. I promise that this will never, ever happen again." I know that I'm dreaming, here, but wouldn't it be nice??? :rolleyes:
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lilmatdog
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Wouldn't it be nice for the ref to step up and admit there is no reason to resort to violence?

Yes, I am turning these ridiculous arguments intentionally. Some people were on here blasting this lady. I also checked with people who have known this lady for many years and who work tournaments all over the cities when ever needed. They told me that every time they have been short at tournaments and asked her she pitched in doing everything from table work, to running, to reffing and as I said before she did it even when she was pregnant.

Did she yell at the ref, argue the call? Obviously. Is she the only one that has argued calls? Read the other posts and it is equally as obvious that she is not the only one.

Chris Shiherlis, you say that if someone doesn't leave the mat when you politely ask them too, you will shove them? It that grown up? Is that what we are trying to teach the kids? I'm amazed that you have a problem with a woman defending herself with that attitude.

I very well might be reading Chris Shiherlis wrong and that is not what he meant when he said this,

Quote:
 
I can tell you right now if somebody gets in my face, is raising their voice and being a general a$$hole, man or woman I will ask them to step back. If they do not I will then push them back fully aware of what may happen then.

I am reading that to mean that you do indeed condone violence as an answer. As I stated in a previous post, I think that is what tournament directors are for.

I thought I did answer your question in my last post so I will try again, is this what you want me to respond too?

Quote:
 
If the woman was not prepared for the consequences of the confrontation SHE initiated, she should not have done it.

Here is my answer.

People can have a difference of opinions and they might become heated but that does NOT excuse the ref for starting the violence period. In no way shape or form do I condone this lady punching the ref nor do I condone the ref initiating the physical violence in the first place. The head table wasn't very far away, certainly close enough for the ref to walk over and have this situation address once he felt it had run its course.

Two wrongs never make a right... including this time. If people think one party should step up and admit their wrong then they should have the same expectations from the other party as well.

I am probably done with this thread as I feel it has run it's course, it appears the line in the sand is drawn so there just isn't anymore to be said. Hopefully we don't witness a repeat of this action by either party.
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sitandspin
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lilmatdog
Apr 18 2008, 06:14 PM
Wouldn't it be nice for the ref to step up and admit there is no reason to resort to violence?

Yes, I am turning these ridiculous arguments intentionally. Some people were on here blasting this lady. I also checked with people who have known this lady for many years and who work tournaments all over the cities when ever needed. They told me that every time they have been short at tournaments and asked her she pitched in doing everything from table work, to running, to reffing and as I said before she did it even when she was pregnant.

Did she yell at the ref, argue the call? Obviously. Is she the only one that has argued calls? Read the other posts and it is equally as obvious that she is not the only one.

Chris Shiherlis, you say that if someone doesn't leave the mat when you politely ask them too, you will shove them? It that grown up? Is that what we are trying to teach the kids? I'm amazed that you have a problem with a woman defending herself with that attitude.

I very well might be reading Chris Shiherlis wrong and that is not what he meant when he said this,

Quote:
 
I can tell you right now if somebody gets in my face, is raising their voice and being a general a$$hole, man or woman I will ask them to step back. If they do not I will then push them back fully aware of what may happen then.

I am reading that to mean that you do indeed condone violence as an answer. As I stated in a previous post, I think that is what tournament directors are for.

I thought I did answer your question in my last post so I will try again, is this what you want me to respond too?

Quote:
 
If the woman was not prepared for the consequences of the confrontation SHE initiated, she should not have done it.

Here is my answer.

People can have a difference of opinions and they might become heated but that does NOT excuse the ref for starting the violence period. In no way shape or form do I condone this lady punching the ref nor do I condone the ref initiating the physical violence in the first place. The head table wasn't very far away, certainly close enough for the ref to walk over and have this situation address once he felt it had run its course.

Two wrongs never make a right... including this time. If people think one party should step up and admit their wrong then they should have the same expectations from the other party as well.

I am probably done with this thread as I feel it has run it's course, it appears the line in the sand is drawn so there just isn't anymore to be said. Hopefully we don't witness a repeat of this action by either party.

Did she step onto the mat?

Was she coaching on the edge of the mat or a spectator in the stands prior to the event?
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Chris Shiherlis
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lilmatdog
Apr 18 2008, 06:14 PM
Wouldn't it be nice for the ref to step up and admit there is no reason to resort to violence?

Yes, I am turning these ridiculous arguments intentionally. Some people were on here blasting this lady. I also checked with people who have known this lady for many years and who work tournaments all over the cities when ever needed. They told me that every time they have been short at tournaments and asked her she pitched in doing everything from table work, to running, to reffing and as I said before she did it even when she was pregnant.

Did she yell at the ref, argue the call? Obviously. Is she the only one that has argued calls? Read the other posts and it is equally as obvious that she is not the only one.

Chris Shiherlis, you say that if someone doesn't leave the mat when you politely ask them too, you will shove them? It that grown up? Is that what we are trying to teach the kids? I'm amazed that you have a problem with a woman defending herself with that attitude.

I very well might be reading Chris Shiherlis wrong and that is not what he meant when he said this,

Quote:
 
I can tell you right now if somebody gets in my face, is raising their voice and being a general a$$hole, man or woman I will ask them to step back. If they do not I will then push them back fully aware of what may happen then.

I am reading that to mean that you do indeed condone violence as an answer. As I stated in a previous post, I think that is what tournament directors are for.

I thought I did answer your question in my last post so I will try again, is this what you want me to respond too?

Quote:
 
If the woman was not prepared for the consequences of the confrontation SHE initiated, she should not have done it.

Here is my answer.

People can have a difference of opinions and they might become heated but that does NOT excuse the ref for starting the violence period. In no way shape or form do I condone this lady punching the ref nor do I condone the ref initiating the physical violence in the first place. The head table wasn't very far away, certainly close enough for the ref to walk over and have this situation address once he felt it had run its course.

Two wrongs never make a right... including this time. If people think one party should step up and admit their wrong then they should have the same expectations from the other party as well.

I am probably done with this thread as I feel it has run it's course, it appears the line in the sand is drawn so there just isn't anymore to be said. Hopefully we don't witness a repeat of this action by either party.

OK. You are either trying really hard to not get my point or lack the intellectual capacity. I don't know you so I won't offer my opinion.

I don't know how to state it more clearly than I have. If you are going to get worked up and get in someone's face you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.

She apparently was not so she escalated to the point of striking the ref.

I don't see pushing somebody back as initiating 'violence' under these circumstances. I see it as an appropriate response to the get in your face screaming tirade kind of crap she pulled. It's merely protecting your space from a person who initiated confrontation and is escalating.

It is clear to me you come from an angle that it is perfectly acceptable to behave as she did and she should just get to go about her business. How dare anybody do anything to correct her.

I disagree strongly and as I stated before am sick and tired of people who think they can act like this with no consequence.

If you are not willing to hold an adult to a higher standard I am concerned with what you are teaching the children you interact with.
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lilmatdog
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The funny thing is I almost agree with everything you just said and most everything you have said in all of your arguments... reread your last line,
Quote:
 
If you are not willing to hold an adult to a higher standard I am concerned with what you are teaching the children you interact with.

BOTH parties involved were adults.

If anyone takes the time to reread this entire thread they will see how it was very one sided, blaming only one party for everything. I have never seen anyone get in trouble for shadow boxing, only when two people are involved is there a problem.

I'm not missing your point anymore than you are missing mine, which means that I, in no way
Quote:
 
lack the intellectual capacity
anymore than you do. I will make my point as clear and pellucid as I can...

Two people were involved, both have responsibility.

If you have any other issues feel free to pm me as I don't see any reason to waste more of the forum space. I think very highly of this ref and I admire this womens commitment to the sport. They are two extremely different people from different backgrounds with different personalities who are going to clash strongly if their comes a disagreement and I don't know either as one who will back down if they feel someone is trying to steamroll them and it appears I am right in my assessment as they both held their ground to the end.

If I were to only choose one side I would side with the ref but I also felt that both parties needed to be represented in this matter and that just wasn't happening.
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Chris Shiherlis
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lilmatdog
Apr 19 2008, 12:32 PM
The funny thing is I almost agree with everything you just said and most everything you have said in all of your arguments... reread your last line,
Quote:
 
If you are not willing to hold an adult to a higher standard I am concerned with what you are teaching the children you interact with.

BOTH parties involved were adults.

If anyone takes the time to reread this entire thread they will see how it was very one sided, blaming only one party for everything. I have never seen anyone get in trouble for shadow boxing, only when two people are involved is there a problem.

I'm not missing your point anymore than you are missing mine, which means that I, in no way
Quote:
 
lack the intellectual capacity
anymore than you do. I will make my point as clear and pellucid as I can...

Two people were involved, both have responsibility.

If you have any other issues feel free to pm me as I don't see any reason to waste more of the forum space. I think very highly of this ref and I admire this womens commitment to the sport. They are two extremely different people from different backgrounds with different personalities who are going to clash strongly if their comes a disagreement and I don't know either as one who will back down if they feel someone is trying to steamroll them and it appears I am right in my assessment as they both held their ground to the end.

If I were to only choose one side I would side with the ref but I also felt that both parties needed to be represented in this matter and that just wasn't happening.

I understand sticking up for somebody you respect.

Besides, I don't have the intellectual capacity at the moment to come up with a word that trumps pellucid so I guess we are just going to have to meet somewhere in the middle and get on with our lives.

Happy training and good luck to your wrestlers.
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inmydreams
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both of them did not act the smartest, how old was this kid? because if this was just some 4th graders wrestling, there is no reason to get that bent out of shape no matter how bad the call was. And how can a reff shove someone? or talk about their kid like that? show some class people, come on!
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sitandspin
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stmabooster
Apr 16 2008, 01:57 PM
987
Apr 15 2008, 06:27 PM
the ref instigated most of what happened. He talked crap about her kid to get a rise out of her when they were arguing, when she got in his face he pushed her- then she hit him. He admitted it later, she just had to leave and he got to keep reffing the rest of the day.

Excuse me? Where did most of this incident take place? My understanding was that a parent from the stands came out on the mat and confronted the ref, a volunteer by the way. Whatever happened after that should never have happened because the parent shouldn't have been on the mat in the first place.

If this is true and the parent came out of the stands then that is your problem. No arguement, no escalation, no anything if see stays off the mat. The coaches matside should be the only ones addressing the referee about a bad call.

LMD....you are correct about 1 thing. That talking crap about her kid and shoving her is not going to make the situation quiet down. At that point you could say he added the gasoline to the fire.

It common sense, be a parent and stay in the stands and realize that the referees will make calls you don't agree with and even bad calls. They go both ways though, maybe not in the same match, but sooner or later a bad call will be made in your son's favor. To take youth wrestling that seriously obviously points to some other personal issues.
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lilmatdog
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Chris Shiherlis
Apr 19 2008, 04:14 PM
I guess we are just going to have to meet somewhere in the middle and get on with our lives.

Happy training and good luck to your wrestlers.

Now I am 100% in agreement with you. Good luck to all your wrestlers as well, anyone working this time the year is doing something right for themselves.
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asiansensation
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First off, I just want to say that reffing is hard. Especially freestyle where there are so many grey areas. I had to help ref Eastview's tournament having NO experience with the new freestyle rules. In fact, I might have wrestled maybe one or two freestyle tournaments in highschool(back with the older freestyle rules)I want to thank the chaska coach for giving me advice along the way and the other parents/coaches as well.

With that being said, no parent should EVER get into a ref's face because most of these ref's are volunteers and they dont get paid. They dont deserve that verbal abuse and all a parent needs to do is ask the ref to clarify the decision he made. Nothing much more you can do since the call is made already, and plus, its elementary kids. So the woman was wrong for her actions there.

Secondly, IF a ref is put into that situation(where the parent does get into his/her face with verbal abuse), all the ref needs to say is that the decision is made/you are simply volunteering/explain the decision/etc...

Now IF the parents continues to verbally abuse you, the next thing to do is turn the other way, stop talking to the parent, and get one of the tournament directors to wlak her out. Thats it. Its wrong for the lady to verbally abuse the ref, but in NO WAY should the ref physically abuse(including pushing) or verbally abuse anyone(the parents son). The ref should never STOOP down to the level of the abuser that initiated it.

Chris, I dont know where you are from or how you deal with things but thats not how it works. You dont get to (abuse) back because the other person does it. I was at the brainerd court because of a speeding ticket violation and I was fighting it. A 18 year old was at the judge explaining his case before me while I listened. He was at a wedding and a kid was taunting him. The 18 year old decided to fight him and he was later arrested, along with the other kid. The 18 year old kid ended up getting 3-6 months in jail. Ridiculous huh? Well thats the LAW. Just walk away, dont stoop down.

So my point of all of this is, the lady was wrong for getting onto the mat. But the ref was wrong for the physical/verbal abuse back.
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Chris Shiherlis
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asiansensation
Apr 24 2008, 08:50 PM

Chris, I dont know where you are from or how you deal with things but thats not how it works. You dont get to (abuse) back because the other person does it. I was at the brainerd court because of a speeding ticket violation and I was fighting it. A 18 year old was at the judge explaining his case before me while I listened. He was at a wedding and a kid was taunting him. The 18 year old decided to fight him and he was later arrested, along with the other kid. The 18 year old kid ended up getting 3-6 months in jail. Ridiculous huh? Well thats the LAW. Just walk away, dont stoop down.

So my point of all of this is, the lady was wrong for getting onto the mat. But the ref was wrong for the physical/verbal abuse back.

You have mischaracterized what I said badly. Part of that is probably my fault.

My point is when a person engages in confrontation, in particular getting in your personal space and acting aggressively, they need to accept the fact that this is not something to embark upon lightly and can have consequences.

Don't speak to me about laws and consequences. We don't know each other and you have no idea where I have been or what I do. I fully understand the implications of what I wrote and stand by it.

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asiansensation
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Chris Shiherlis
Apr 24 2008, 10:09 PM
asiansensation
Apr 24 2008, 08:50 PM

Chris, I dont know where you are from or how you deal with things but thats not how it works.  You dont get to (abuse) back because the other person does it.  I was at the brainerd court because of a speeding ticket violation and I was fighting it.  A 18 year old was at the judge explaining his case before me while I listened.  He was at a wedding and a kid was taunting him.  The 18 year old decided to fight him and he was later arrested, along with the other kid.  The 18 year old kid ended up getting 3-6 months in jail.  Ridiculous huh?  Well thats the LAW.  Just walk away, dont stoop down.

So my point of all of this is, the lady was wrong for getting onto the mat.  But the ref was wrong for the physical/verbal abuse back.

You have mischaracterized what I said badly. Part of that is probably my fault.

My point is when a person engages in confrontation, in particular getting in your personal space and acting aggressively, they need to accept the fact that this is not something to embark upon lightly and can have consequences.

Don't speak to me about laws and consequences. We don't know each other and you have no idea where I have been or what I do. I fully understand the implications of what I wrote and stand by it.

I know what you are saying, and to an extent, you are correct. You are saying that if someone decides to "get into someones face", you should be prepared for any consequences that come along with that, which is true. But that doesn't mean it is right for the ref to verbally or physically abuse back. He certainly has the RIGHT to do ANYTHING back and the lady obviously will have to deal with it. But having the right to do something is different then the right or wrong of an action. Just like a rule/law, everyone has the RIGHT to follow it or break it but if you decide to break it, PREPARE yourself for all consequences that come with it. If he wanted to be the bigger person of the situation, all he needed to do is step back and turn the other way. Not calling someone's kid a "horse$h&* wrestler" and pushing back a lady. But since his reaction was to do that, he lowered himself down to her level(and her level was pretty low)

You said, "My point is when a person engages in confrontation, in particular getting in your personal space and acting aggressively, they need to accept the fact that this is not something to embark upon lightly and can have consequences."
-Are you saying that this man was threatened by this lady? That this lady would have maybe punched him in the face or something? I HIGHLY DOUBT that the lady would have physically abused the ref in front of everybody because thats an easy way to get sued big time. Even if she did do anything, the ref was probably a ex-wrestler/wrestler and could handle defending himself from an attack.

The lady was wrong for her actions, and the ref was wrong as well for his actions back.

Im not trying to say im a lawyer or anything, and I dont know who you are or what you have been through. I mentioned that story because it relates to this situation. Also, it helped support my point. My reasoning didn't come from going to law school(even though I took business and ethical law courses), but it came from knowing whats ethically right and wrong.
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Chris Shiherlis
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asiansensation
Apr 25 2008, 01:47 PM
asiansensation,Apr 24 2008
08:50 PM


-Are you saying that this man was threatened by this lady? That this lady would have maybe punched him in the face or something? I HIGHLY DOUBT that the lady would have physically abused the ref in front of everybody because thats an easy way to get sued big time. Even if she did do anything, the ref was probably a ex-wrestler/wrestler and could handle defending himself from an attack.




Uhhh, I can't speak for the man but sometimes women can get pretty hostile ;) and she DID hit him there, punchy. Did you miss that part of the story?

Anyway, I don't really understand why you wish to engage me at this level over this topic. I have said it before and although I hate to repeat myself I guess I will say it again.

I am sick and tired of people thinking they can confront people on this level with impunity. Everybody has that coworker who flies off the handle, that friend who creates scenes, etc. and what most of these people have in common is that they have not encountered someone who was willing to educate them on the perils of doing so.

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HDPOLFOOTBASEWREST
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I wonder if we will have a repeat performance in Forest Lake i will watch out
for any tough looking women there!
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asiansensation
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Chris Shiherlis
Apr 25 2008, 02:16 PM
asiansensation,Apr 25 2008
01:47 PM
asiansensation,Apr 24 2008
08:50 PM


-Are you saying that this man was threatened by this lady? That this lady would have maybe punched him in the face or something? I HIGHLY DOUBT that the lady would have physically abused the ref in front of everybody because thats an easy way to get sued big time. Even if she did do anything, the ref was probably a ex-wrestler/wrestler and could handle defending himself from an attack.




Uhhh, I can't speak for the man but sometimes women can get pretty hostile ;) and she DID hit him there, punchy. Did you miss that part of the story?

Anyway, I don't really understand why you wish to engage me at this level over this topic. I have said it before and although I hate to repeat myself I guess I will say it again.

I am sick and tired of people thinking they can confront people on this level with impunity. Everybody has that coworker who flies off the handle, that friend who creates scenes, etc. and what most of these people have in common is that they have not encountered someone who was willing to educate them on the perils of doing so.

Yeah, I heard she did after the ref pushed her. And I think everyone is sick of people behaving this way but I think its part of their personality and attitude and thats why everyone has to ignore it. They wont learn their lesson if you fight back with them. In fact they do the things they do because they hoenstly love that drama they cause.
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Chris Shiherlis
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asiansensation
Apr 25 2008, 02:53 PM
asiansensation,Apr 24 2008
08:50 PM


Yeah, I heard she did after the ref pushed her. And I think everyone is sick of people behaving this way but I think its part of their personality and attitude and thats why everyone has to ignore it. They wont learn their lesson if you fight back with them. In fact they do the things they do because they hoenstly love that drama they cause.

Listen. I have already posted on this ad nauseum and am completely unwilling to enter into a dialogue with you about the motivation of people who behave this way.
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