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reporting to the scorer's table/mat
Topic Started: Jan 11 2012, 02:55 AM (1,485 Views)
keepwrestling
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i saw something tonight that i have never seen before. after the 2nd or 3rd match in a dual meet team B is waiting for team A to present. wrestler A reports to table and then to center of mat. wrestler B reports to table and then to center of mat. head coach from team A protests claiming that team B head coach had indicated forfeiting the weight class. both coaches and both refs have a discussion at scorers table. ref goes to center of mat and raises wrestler A's hand by forfeit and declares wrestler B to be reporting for the next weight class. team B head coach is furious because now he cannot withdraw his wrestler who was sent out for the match that was declared a forfeit and must bump the rest of his line-up up a weight class.

i saw no indication to forfeit from team B bench, but i was looking at team A, and the head coach from team B never approached the scorer's table. team B wrestler reported directly after wrestler A reported to center of mat and was weighted in at that weight. after the meet was over, i heard the ref trying to explain to an asst. coach from team B that it was a matter of coaches ethics. it could be that an agreement was made between coaches before the meet started and that coach B was not honoring it, though i doubt it as coach B denied ever indicating forfeiting.

even so, 2 wrestlers "properly reported to the scorer's table in proper sequence, as determined by the pre-meet disc toss". wrestler B reported to that weight class, not the next one up, when he went to the scorers table. my question is, how is it that this match is not contested when "neither can be withdrawn or replaced without disqualification"?
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WrestlingOfficial
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That would be a new one for me as well. If B team has a wrestler that weighed-in and qualifies for the weight and followed the proper sequence there isn't anything we as an official can do. It could very well be because the program listed the weight as being open but that doesn't mean it will be when we actually wrestle. It could have been a JV wrestler they decided they were going to bump up to varsity. But either way the A team coach should have seen that B weighed a kid in at the open weight.

Coaches ethics has nothing to do with this. The coaches ethics we worry about is when it is A's turn to check in but B checks in a JV wrestler when it isn't their turn, so A then sends JV kid out and now B wants to remove the B wrestler because it wasn't there choice to check in first "properly reported to the scorer's table in proper sequence". This is allowed but can be bad coaches etchics as B is baiting the A coach to get the match up the B coach wants by checking his kid in out of order then pulling him.

Edited by WrestlingOfficial, Jan 11 2012, 09:04 AM.
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drobbins77
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I would like to add one comment to this conversation. Team B head coach said to the ref "we forefit" and waived his arms as though indicating a forefit for the weight. Seeing this, team A sent out a JV wrestler to take the forefit. Team B head coach then sent out a wrestler after already indicating a forefit. If team B head coach denied indicating a forefit then he is not being truthful. I am an assistant coach for team A and I saw and heard him indicate a forefit. If team B head coach was trying to bait team A into sending out a JV wrestler by saying "we forefit" then he was being extremely unethical in my opinion.
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WrestlingOfficial
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Sounds like the classic baiting/unethical I was talking about in the above post.
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keepwrestling
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i checked the program and wrestler B was listed (varsity) at that weight so it should come as no surprise that he reports to that weight class. also, team A sent the JV wrestler out and bumped up the varsity. it could be that the "indicated forfeit" was based on the varsity A wrestler at that weight. by what you have described it would seem that the ethics issue is on coach A as he now has the match up he wanted.

now, if what i have described are the "facts", not just how i am seeing things, how did 2 refs come up with this call? (forfeit and check in for next weight) and if this is the wrong call, what options does coach B have, if any, either during the meet and or afterward?
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WrestlingOfficial
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Not sure how ethic issue is on coach A. If coach B indeed said we forfeit and did it out of sequence then by rule he can change and put someone out there after A presents their wrestler (remember it wasn't B's turn so he can change). However if everything you say is true sounds like he may have baited team A into sending out their JV guy, so ethics of B could be in question here.

That is why you should always follow the sequence. B should have said nothing and not present a wrestler or even indicate they were forfeiting as it wasn't their turn, A then needs to decide do I send JV or Varsity kid. A sends out their kid then B can send out who they want including forfeiting.

Just do it in the proper sequence.

Taken right from NFHS Preseason guide Rule 6-2-2 Situation 1: For a dual meet, both coaches weigh in two wrestlers for the 126-pound class and two wrestlers for the 132-pound class. At the completion of the 120-pound class, one of B's wrestlers who is qualified for 126-pound class, reports to the scorer's table. The team that is required to send a wrestler to the scorer's tables sends A. As soon as A reports to the scorer's table, the coach of School B recalls B1 and sends B2 to the scorer's table. Is this permissible? Ruling: Yes, the team that was determined by the pre-meet disk toss to send it's wrestler to the scorer's table 1st is restricted and cannot be withdrawn or replaced without being disqualified. However once both wrestler's have properly reported to the table in proper sequence, neither can be withdrawn or replaced without disqualification.


So If I were the official and I indeed hear B say we forfeit but then make the change after A presents, I would let B change from forfeit to letting the wrestler wrestle (per above rule) it really isn't any different then sending out a different kid and replacing vs. sending no kid and replacing but If I felt he was intentionally baiting coach A into sending the JV kid then I would then hit the B coach for unsportsmanlike conduct. Tough call to determine if it was a bait or not.

Let's take your situation and put it into an example. A has a 20-0 stud at 126 and an .500 wrestler at 132. It is A's choice but for some reason B presented 1st and sends out a JV kid to throw at the stud (really just hoping to split the bouts). Then A says okay we will send out our JV and bump our 20-0 stud to 132 (trying to win both bouts). B by rule has the right to make the change, as it wasn't his turn.

Now there should be no reason why they can't change their minds about a forfeit either. If they followed the sequence A would have had to make the choice to send varsity kid or JV then B can make their choice, which in your example would have been forfeit if varsity kid presented 1st or wrestle if it was the JV wrestler.

As we get to sections please coaches and officials don't let anyone check in out of sequence to avoid this very thing.

Edited by WrestlingOfficial, Jan 11 2012, 02:07 PM.
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drobbins77
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Great answer Mr. Frost, thank you for helping with this discussion.
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keepwrestling
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you bring up another issue that i was wondering about, if the issue is coach B's ethics then why not the misconduct call and let the match be wrestled? and again, if the wrong call is made, what are the options?
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WrestlingOfficial
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We don't know if b has bad ethics. Maybe b thought stud was on way to check in so he said we forfeit then B sees A check jv kid in. The very kid he thought they would wrestle at the weight above assuming everyone checked in in order. So he changes his mind. If the ref felt B was baiting then would be 1 team pt. As for what can happen now. Nothing can happen now
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keepwrestling
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could be just that. thanks for you input. it is good that we can all learn from these types of things.
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bparlin
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I'm pretty sure this incident is describing what happened at our dual meet the other night. Here is what happened, and to me it's pretty clear cut.

Team A had to present the weight class. I was waiting at the head table for Team A to present. Team A's coach indicated/verballed "forfeit" to the ref. The ref came to the table and said Team A forfeits, so I sent our wrestler out to take the forfeit.

The who confusion started because Team A thought Team B had to present the weight class.
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Sharkey
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I think it's great that people were able to use this forum to peacefully identify a problem rather than insults and complaining. An incident like this could have created issues between these teams for years to come.

So the mistake here was when the referee forced Team B to bump all of their wrestlers up a weight? A wrestler can't report for a weight class before the previous weight class is complete.
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