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R.C. Johnson doesn't qualify for Olympics?; I don't get it?
Topic Started: Apr 28 2012, 08:03 AM (2,097 Views)
Ash_Williams
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I just listened to a story on Kare 11 today about R.C. Johnson winning the Olympic Trials, but he's not guarenteed a spot on the Olympic Team because the U.S. hasn't qualified at that weight.

Kare 11 says.

"Johnson, who won the U.S. Open earlier this year, has been pursuing this dream for some time. He's come close before, but this year, the 29 year old was the number one seed in his weight class, and he lived up to the favorite status. Now, he must await for an American wrestler to win an international match in that weight division, and then, and only then will he become an Olympian."


OK, I guess I sort of understand that the U.S. needs to qualify their weights in order to participate. I understand that much in principle.

What I DON'T understand is, why does R.C. Johnson needs to wait for another U.S. wrestler to qualify at that weight, and then he wrestle that guy off for the Olympic Team spot? That's stupid!!! Why can't R.C. Johnson go out right now, and qualify the U.S. for the weight himself? Why does someone else have to do it, then Johnson have to wrestling that guy?

Johnson was the number 1 seed at the trials. Why isn't the U.S. sending him out to win the International match that qualifies the U.S. at that weight?

PLEASE, someone explain.

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CropDuster
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Ash_Williams
Apr 28 2012, 08:03 AM
I just listened to a story on Kare 11 today about R.C. Johnson winning the Olympic Trials, but he's not guarenteed a spot on the Olympic Team because the U.S. hasn't qualified at that weight.

Kare 11 says.

"Johnson, who won the U.S. Open earlier this year, has been pursuing this dream for some time. He's come close before, but this year, the 29 year old was the number one seed in his weight class, and he lived up to the favorite status. Now, he must await for an American wrestler to win an international match in that weight division, and then, and only then will he become an Olympian."


OK, I guess I sort of understand that the U.S. needs to qualify their weights in order to participate. I understand that much in principle.

What I DON'T understand is, why does R.C. Johnson needs to wait for another U.S. wrestler to qualify at that weight, and then he wrestle that guy off for the Olympic Team spot? That's stupid!!! Why can't R.C. Johnson go out right now, and qualify the U.S. for the weight himself? Why does someone else have to do it, then Johnson have to wrestling that guy?

Johnson was the number 1 seed at the trials. Why isn't the U.S. sending him out to win the International match that qualifies the U.S. at that weight?

PLEASE, someone explain.

I believe Ruiz (the perceived #1 before the trials) is trying to qualify the weight. He was the World Team guy in 2011, so he has the edge in "going to qualify the weight". Had the weight been already qualified, Ruiz would have been at the trials, and the matter would have been settled there. At 60KG in freestyle, something similar happened. Reese Humphrey (World Team member in 2011 and also #1 ranked) was supposed to go to China and qualify the weight this weekend, thus sitting out the Trials and having a "wrestle-off" afterwards. Humphrey busted his hand or something, so he couldn't compete either way. So Shawn Bunch sat out the trials to qualify in China, and Coleman Scott won the tournament. So, now that the weight is qualified, those three will duke it out to see who makes the Olympic Team.
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Ash_Williams
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CropDuster
Apr 28 2012, 08:35 AM
Ash_Williams
Apr 28 2012, 08:03 AM
I just listened to a story on Kare 11 today about R.C. Johnson winning the Olympic Trials, but he's not guarenteed a spot on the Olympic Team because the U.S. hasn't qualified at that weight.

Kare 11 says.

"Johnson, who won the U.S. Open earlier this year, has been pursuing this dream for some time. He's come close before, but this year, the 29 year old was the number one seed in his weight class, and he lived up to the favorite status. Now, he must await for an American wrestler to win an international match in that weight division, and then, and only then will he become an Olympian."


OK, I guess I sort of understand that the U.S. needs to qualify their weights in order to participate. I understand that much in principle.

What I DON'T understand is, why does R.C. Johnson needs to wait for another U.S. wrestler to qualify at that weight, and then he wrestle that guy off for the Olympic Team spot? That's stupid!!! Why can't R.C. Johnson go out right now, and qualify the U.S. for the weight himself? Why does someone else have to do it, then Johnson have to wrestling that guy?

Johnson was the number 1 seed at the trials. Why isn't the U.S. sending him out to win the International match that qualifies the U.S. at that weight?

PLEASE, someone explain.

I believe Ruiz (the perceived #1 before the trials) is trying to qualify the weight. He was the World Team guy in 2011, so he has the edge in "going to qualify the weight". Had the weight been already qualified, Ruiz would have been at the trials, and the matter would have been settled there. At 60KG in freestyle, something similar happened. Reese Humphrey (World Team member in 2011 and also #1 ranked) was supposed to go to China and qualify the weight this weekend, thus sitting out the Trials and having a "wrestle-off" afterwards. Humphrey busted his hand or something, so he couldn't compete either way. So Shawn Bunch sat out the trials to qualify in China, and Coleman Scott won the tournament. So, now that the weight is qualified, those three will duke it out to see who makes the Olympic Team.
So basically, there's some "seniority" involved. Team U.S.A. can basically decide that some wrestlers don't need to go to the trials, and their services are better suited overseas getting the country qualified.

There's almost an advantage to sandbagging at these World Qaulifiers until after the U.S. Olympic Trials, so they don't have to wrestle at the Trials. Right? They basically just need to take 3rd or better at the World Qualifier, and then have one wrestle-off to make the team.

Do I have that right?
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Ash_Williams
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It sounds like a dumb process. I think that any and all wrestlers who are trying to qualify for the Olympic Team should be present at the U.S. Olympic Trials. The U.S. Olympic Team should be decided at that event.

If the U.S. hasn't qualified any of their weights yet at that point, then the wrestlers who earned their team spots thereafter should be given first opportunity to put their fate in their own hands, and qualify the U.S. at that weight.
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CropDuster
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Ash_Williams
Apr 28 2012, 08:47 AM
CropDuster
Apr 28 2012, 08:35 AM
Ash_Williams
Apr 28 2012, 08:03 AM
I just listened to a story on Kare 11 today about R.C. Johnson winning the Olympic Trials, but he's not guarenteed a spot on the Olympic Team because the U.S. hasn't qualified at that weight.

Kare 11 says.

"Johnson, who won the U.S. Open earlier this year, has been pursuing this dream for some time. He's come close before, but this year, the 29 year old was the number one seed in his weight class, and he lived up to the favorite status. Now, he must await for an American wrestler to win an international match in that weight division, and then, and only then will he become an Olympian."


OK, I guess I sort of understand that the U.S. needs to qualify their weights in order to participate. I understand that much in principle.

What I DON'T understand is, why does R.C. Johnson needs to wait for another U.S. wrestler to qualify at that weight, and then he wrestle that guy off for the Olympic Team spot? That's stupid!!! Why can't R.C. Johnson go out right now, and qualify the U.S. for the weight himself? Why does someone else have to do it, then Johnson have to wrestling that guy?

Johnson was the number 1 seed at the trials. Why isn't the U.S. sending him out to win the International match that qualifies the U.S. at that weight?

PLEASE, someone explain.

I believe Ruiz (the perceived #1 before the trials) is trying to qualify the weight. He was the World Team guy in 2011, so he has the edge in "going to qualify the weight". Had the weight been already qualified, Ruiz would have been at the trials, and the matter would have been settled there. At 60KG in freestyle, something similar happened. Reese Humphrey (World Team member in 2011 and also #1 ranked) was supposed to go to China and qualify the weight this weekend, thus sitting out the Trials and having a "wrestle-off" afterwards. Humphrey busted his hand or something, so he couldn't compete either way. So Shawn Bunch sat out the trials to qualify in China, and Coleman Scott won the tournament. So, now that the weight is qualified, those three will duke it out to see who makes the Olympic Team.
So basically, there's some "seniority" involved. Team U.S.A. can basically decide that some wrestlers don't need to go to the trials, and their services are better suited overseas getting the country qualified.

There's almost an advantage to sandbagging at these World Qaulifiers until after the U.S. Olympic Trials, so they don't have to wrestle at the Trials. Right? They basically just need to take 3rd or better at the World Qualifier, and then have one wrestle-off to make the team.

Do I have that right?
That is a way to look at it. However, the Olympic Trials don't mean much if we don't have a spot in the Olympic Tournament. I really doubt we can have guys peak like they do for the Trials, and then go right back at it this weekend in China for a spot in the Olympics. Say Bunch and Scott wrestle, scrap, and they both slightly tweak things and have just minor injuries. All of a sudden they have to go back to the hard weight cut and train on bum body parts for their shot at the Olympics. Thenn you have a weaker Shawn Bunch or Coleman Scott wrestling guys that are peaking for the Olympic Qualifier. They can wrestle below their potential because they had to compete at the grinder of trials or worse, get injured. Then we have no rep at 60 KG.

The point of the process is to get our best medal-threat to London (I assume). Based on prior results, one would infer that that is Ruiz. However, RC has every bit of opportunity to beat him. Either way, you need a spot in the Olympics to compete for, or else the point is kinda void.

Nobody is "sandbagging" the qualifying events... You watch the interviews for these guys at the trials or guys that are going places to qualify the weights... These guys are strictly business and want the USA in those tournaments, first and foremost. This process shows slight favoritism, in some eyes, but those guys have earned their way into their position, and I'm sure they aren't abusing their "seeding" so that they can be lazier. These are world-class wrestlers, we're talking about here.
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Ash_Williams
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I was probably being too strong when I said "sandbagging". Still, I believe the Trials should be "the" event to decide who is the best person for the job.

You are absolutely right, it's all pointless if we don't have a spot. That's exactly why I think the guy who wins the Olympic Trials should be responsible for earning the spot.

If we really don't want to waste everyone's time, then why are the Trials being held so early? Why not wait until the World Team Qualifiers are over, than host the U.S. Trials? Then you aren't wasting everyone's time by hosting a Trial at a weight that potentially doesn't exsist. It would give wrestlers the opportunity to move to a weight, knowing that they are competing for an actual Olympic spot.

With the current process, it just seems like a potential for wasting people's time and efforts. In this sport, those efforts are significant. There's also the potential for some politics.
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Ash_Williams
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There's also a big difference between winning a tournament, and winning a wrestle-off. A wrestle-off proves nothing, especially when you are trying to figure out who your best guy is for an International Tournament. I understand that there are past qualifications, etc. But this is wrestling. The best guy yesterday is not necessarily the best guy today, nor the best guy tomorrow. I would never decided any of that on a wrestle-off.

The Trials should be the only qualification method. If you miss the Trials, your out. If your weight isn't qualified yet, then it's up the Trials winner to get him/herself to the dance. If timing is an issue, then you either move up or move back the date of the Trials.
Edited by Ash_Williams, Apr 28 2012, 11:21 AM.
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CropDuster
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The wrestle-off, the way I look at it, is a penalty for the guys at the weight not getting the spot qualified. I mean, look at Betts. He got the job done in the Pan-Am Qualifier (I think it was that one) before the trials, but later in the season. All those guys had him to thank for taking the task of qualifying the country. That's a hell of an accomplishment, in itself.

It's no different than the leg clinch in freestyle. You can be defensive ("sandbag" or whatever) and not score until the clinch. However, you're taking that chance of not getting a good ball grab and getting beat in the clinch (not qualifying the weight and not competing at the Olympics). These guys are still trying to succeed and reach the ultimate goal of winning the match (being the Olympian at the weight). However, it is needed to determine the (perceived) better wrestler. So yeah, you could do that, and politics could become involved and you could lose the match (not qualify or be the Olympian). The penalty is leaving it up to chance.

In a perfect world, we'd have all the weights qualified by Trials time and everything would be settled. They hold the Trials so early so that the National Team coaches can train and peak the athletes to the best of their ability (again, assumed). However, this isn't a perfect world and we didn't have every weight qualified, so they needed to have rules and procedures set up for this kind of situation. They do.

Is the leg clinch perfect? No. I personally enjoy it, but it sucks watching 0-0 periods for 15 seconds of action. It is the current way FILA determines the winner of a match. These rules and procedures are how the US determines our best medal-threat for London.

Qualifying the weight a week after peaking for the Trials isn't as cut and dry as I feel like you're making it. When you say, "That's exactly why I think the guy who wins the Olympic Trials should be responsible for earning the spot." doesn't quite measure up for me. It was his responsibility, and it wasn't accomplished before the Trials. Therefore, he is slightly penalized by going through the procedures that were pre-determined.
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J Nalan
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I feel comfortable saying that the top priority for everyone involved in USA Wrestling is to send the wrestlers that have the best chance to medal.

It's my understanding that all of the stakeholders [wrestlers, coaches and executives] sat down sometime last year and asked the question "What's the best method to navigate through the mess of qualifying our country at each weight and then picking the best athlete to represent that weight?"

The process we have is the process they came up with. I don't think it makes much sense to start second guessing the process now. Having the first priority be sending our established international wrestlers overseas to qualify for any unqualified weights makes total sense. As odd as it seems, Olympic Trials is a secondary priority. I believe it was the wrestlers wishes that dictated having the Olympic trails this early. They felt this timeline would help them win medals. Hard to argue with that.
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Ash_Williams
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Apr 28 2012, 01:51 PM
I feel comfortable saying that the top priority for everyone involved in USA Wrestling is to send the wrestlers that have the best chance to medal.

It's my understanding that all of the stakeholders [wrestlers, coaches and executives] sat down sometime last year and asked the question "What's the best method to navigate through the mess of qualifying our country at each weight and then picking the best athlete to represent that weight?"

The process we have is the process they came up with. I don't think it makes much sense to start second guessing the process now. Having the first priority be sending our established international wrestlers overseas to qualify for any unqualified weights makes total sense. As odd as it seems, Olympic Trials is a secondary priority. I believe it was the wrestlers wishes that dictated having the Olympic trails this early. They felt this timeline would help them win medals. Hard to argue with that.
I found a great video explaining the qualificiation process.

Olympic Wrestling Qualificiation Process

I'm looking forward to the "Two Man Sack Race".
Edited by Ash_Williams, Apr 28 2012, 07:13 PM.
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Tiny Tornado
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first of all" Johnson was the #1 seed at the trials because Ruiz was NOT THERE- has Ruiz competed, he would have been the first seed-

traveling to foreign countries to compete is no cake-walk- you've got to deal with jet-lag, different foods, different everything- so it's not like flying from say, California to NYC, and wrestling in the NYAC tournament - there are time adjustments, altitude adjustments, etc... it would be ridiculous to send a guy over to China just a week after having competed in the OTT- the guy going to China needs to be fresh, and preferrably at his peak, not tired out, possibly injured, and coming off a recent weight cut- then there's the fact that some guys do better internationally- they may or may not always beat their US counterparts, but against foreign competition they have the best winning percentage of all those at their weight class-
I beleive Ruiz is that guy-

so the system in place sends the top guy (i.e., the guy that the US coaches deemed "most likely to get the job done")to China, and then if need be, either that same guy or the next guy in line will have go to Finland next week....if the weight isn't qualified by Finland ? that's it-
no Olympic competitor at the weight/style for London 2012- so there's a lot hinging on this process- why would you put all of that on just one guy ?

Joe Betterman won the trials for 60k Greco in 2008, yet didn't get to compete; as the weight had not been qualified- let's hope that does not happen again to any of our US wrestlers-
as far as the timing of the trials ? it was decided long ago to move up the date to April, to allow more time for the Olympic team members to prepare- you don't want to be selected in June, and compete in August- this way they have an extra month and a half to prepare-

as it is right now: Ruiz lost his first match to Korea- hopefully he'll get pulled back into the repechage-

EDIT: On to Finland we go- Korea lost to Italy, so Ruiz is now out- I don't know if they will send him to Finland, or send R C or the #3 guy- good luck whoever it is; got work to do
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 29 2012, 01:15 AM.
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