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Freestyle/Greco Brackets; Why are they like that?
Topic Started: May 19 2012, 03:43 PM (2,016 Views)
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This is my first year following Freestyle/Greco and I was wondering why they use brackets like that?

My first impression is that I don't like them. I was looking at the MN/USA results and seeing kids not place that had beaten (at previous tournaments) kids that did place. I guess what I am saying is that you may or may not place depending on where you are drawn. I also have felt this way at other tournaments this year.

Are the kids seeded or is it random? And does anyone else not care for the brackets?
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Tiny Tornado
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The State Tournament is not "seeded" 100 %- by that I mean, we don't seperate or seed ALL the kids in each bracket, just some of them, the ones with criteria- wrestlers who have obtained a certain level are seperated so that they do not wrestle each other until further into the tournament- what determines the level of criteria: amount of points accumulated throughout the year at qualifiers; State placement last year, etc- so obviously the kids who get out there and wrestle a lot, and win a lot, and bring themselves up to the next level are going to receive that advantage- it's as it should be

The brackets used for State are a pool bracket- you have to finish top 3 in your pool in order to place- then the number 1's wrestle for First, the #2's wrestle for Third, and the #3's wrestle for Fifth place-

if you are to be a State Champion, you must beat everybody, true ?
Personally I like the brackets using two pools
Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 20 2012, 06:26 PM.
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Absolutely, the Champion must beat everybody.

For some kids placing would be an accomplishment though, and with those brackets they could wrestle the top 2 kids right away and be done. On the other end of the spectrum, there were kids that didn't win a tough match all weekend and placed.

With the high school style brackets you wouldn't wrestle 2-3 easy matches in a row because every time you win you wrestle other kids that have won.
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Scientist
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I would like to know why MN/USA folkstyle does not cross-bracket. My kid had a 16 man bracket and met the same kid 2X, once in 1st round and again in wrestlebacks. They should not have met again until the placing matches. I did notice multiple brackets that were not cross-bracketed.
Edited by Scientist, May 20 2012, 03:17 PM.
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litewait
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dont have to beat everyone to place 1st. You can be first on your side of the bracket by having the most points. I've only seen it a couple times where the top 3 kids have each beaten each other, in which case your pool placement is decided by points. Then number one from that pool would need to beat #1 from the other pool. Again, doesnt happen often, but does occasionally happen.
The odd thing with this bracketing is the bye can be your friend or enemy. In folkstlye bracket, a bye normally does not hurt you. A bye hurts when you are adding up points because you loose the ability to get any, but I've seen it help when it advances you on and another participant gets 2 loses in the first 2 rounds- bye guy guarantee to advance to 3rd round.
As in any tournament, best to keep winning, then you dont have to worry about draws, seeding or brackets :)
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Tiny Tornado
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yes, a bye can hurt you when it comes to freestyle/greco-
it's a win, but there's no classification points given- the wrestler who wins by pin or tech fall is helping him/herself by gaining the most points they can, instead of just winning by decision
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TGross
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May 20 2012, 03:16 PM
I would like to know why MN/USA folkstyle does not cross-bracket. My kid had a 16 man bracket and met the same kid 2X, once in 1st round and again in wrestlebacks. They should not have met again until the placing matches. I did notice multiple brackets that were not cross-bracketed.
Typically the way it works is if you lose in the 1st round you go to the consolation side in the same place you lost. Then the 2nd round losers would be cross bracketed to other half of the consolation bracket. The 3rd round losers (in your case semi finals) would be back on the same side of the bracket.

So in your case, if your kid lost to someone in the 1st round and that person lost in the semi finals they could potentially meet in the consolation semi-finals. If that is not the case, I am curious what bracket your son was in.
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TGross
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litewait
May 20 2012, 03:32 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dont have to beat everyone to place 1st. You can be first on your side of the bracket by having the most points. I've only seen it a couple times where the top 3 kids have each beaten each other, in which case your pool placement is decided by points. Then number one from that pool would need to beat #1 from the other pool. Again, doesnt happen often, but does occasionally happen.
The odd thing with this bracketing is the bye can be your friend or enemy. In folkstlye bracket, a bye normally does not hurt you. A bye hurts when you are adding up points because you loose the ability to get any, but I've seen it help when it advances you on and another participant gets 2 loses in the first 2 rounds- bye guy guarantee to advance to 3rd round.
As in any tournament, best to keep winning, then you dont have to worry about draws, seeding or brackets :)
Up at Fargo last year the bye hurt my son in greco.

He was knocked out in 7th round with 2 other kids. My son had pinned one of the two kids. The kid he pinned beat the 3rd kid, but that 3rd kid had not had a bye so he ended up have more points and advanced. Placement in the bracket may have been a bigger deal though; he got knocked out by 1st and 3rd place winners after he had beaten that year’s folkstyle national champ.

On the flip side, my son won freestyle at Fargo with a loss. :)

If your kid wrestles long enough, they will get some good and some bad draws. Sometimes it seems like the bad ones come a lot more often, but who knows a good one might come at just the right time. The same thing can be said about referees calls.

As far as this bracketing goes, I think straight-line bracketing is much easier to understand. The advantage of the pools is you can get more matches and typically against the better opponents. My son's bracket at Fargo had 81 kids in it and he had 9 matches. In a typical straight line bracket he would have had 6 or 7 matches.
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hockeymom
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Gannon Volk triple crowned with a loss last year. There are pros and cons to that line vs regular bracketing....pros for line...you are rewarded for dominance...total points matter, (reg bracketing you can win every match 1-0 1-0 and win it) Line: you can lose a match and win it...it has happened multiple times, with regular bracketing you can't. I believe for the kid in the top 3-4, line bracketing is a benefit and for the kids strugling to place it is awful...you can draw 2 studs in a row and you are out....in regular bracketing...if you lose you wrestle another kid who lost...easier to crawl back and take 3rd thru 6th-8th....JMO. Much more strategy involved in line bracketing.
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HS12
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put lance benick into consideration?
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