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| Folkstyle in the Olympics; Could it happen? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 31 2012, 12:27 PM (3,462 Views) | |
| JohnnyD | Aug 8 2012, 08:51 AM Post #31 |
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I wrestled all three styles my whole life and I was always someone who liked freestyle a Greco a lot better. However, with that said they put the dramatic changes into the international styles right as I was getting out of high school, and to be honest it was a major turn off for me. The international community attempted to create more action with these rules and they have failed badly. There truly is limited incentive to take risks now, especially on the feet. Its very rare to see a takedown in that opening 90 seconds now, so much comes down to the ball grab. It's frustrating because for me you shouldn't be able to win a match without legitimately scoring a point (not an "I didnt get turned for 30 seconds" point) it just bothers me. I also know that back when the match wasn't broken down into sections the Americans did bring their style of "wear you out till you cant stand then i'll score" and it actually was working pretty well (we were at least taking home multiple medals every four years) but I suspect that other countries did not appreciate this style of wresting, as everywhere else on the planet wrestling is more of an art form than a grind you out sport. I think these are good reasons why Americans are turned off to the international styles, the rules are pretty much not in our favor. Which is evident in how poorly US Greco did at the Olympics. We are going to need to be a lot more technically sound and focus on the intricacies of our wrestling to have more success in Brazil because we cannot grind out anyone under these rules. Obviously folkstyle in the Olympics is a preposterous idea, not unlike NFL football in the Olympics. Were not the only country in the world here people. NOBODY CARES about folkstyle wrestling outside of our borders. I should also add that in spite of this all, I was wide awake and ready to rock every morning at 6:30 over the past fews days and watched every single second of every single match of every American on the Greco team (so not just because of Chas). I will be similarly psyched for the Freestyle tournament where hopefully we bring home some medals. Edited by JohnnyD, Aug 8 2012, 10:50 AM.
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| Auggie4Life | Aug 8 2012, 09:54 AM Post #32 |
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I've wrestled all three styles, I have to honstly say that folkstyle is the truest and purest form of wrestling out of all three styles. I'm not talking about what is most popular in the world, or what rule set is the "oldest". I'm talking about what a real wrestling match is and should be, breaking wrestling down into the most simple principles. With the exception of submission wrestling, folkstyle is the closest I can appreciate Greco for what it is. Style, technique, and restarts to generate more opportunity for style and technique. I'm not trying to knock Greco wrestlers, because I understand they train hard and work hard, and the style is not easy to learn. But to me, the style itself is part wrestling, part gymnastics (in terms of scoring moves). Freestyle is really just Greco with an injection of Western influence. |
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| interchangeable | Aug 8 2012, 02:29 PM Post #33 |
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Yeah, I'm not big on trying to barrel roll someone instead of break them down and pin them. Trying to not get rolled to default to a position instead of trying to escape and work for an advantageous position. I've always thought that folkstyle a more accurate depiction to the idea of wrestling - but it could just be a U.S.-influenced idea. |
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| The Rock | Aug 8 2012, 06:15 PM Post #34 |
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Fantastic
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I don't claim to know much or anything about Greco, but it seems like there is only 4 takedown moves. To me it's kind of boring... |
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| cwillaert | Aug 8 2012, 08:08 PM Post #35 |
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Fantastic
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You're nuts if you think that. And you also made a comment about the step out rule taking away excitement on the edge of the mat...that confirms you being nuts. |
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| JohnnyD | Aug 8 2012, 08:16 PM Post #36 |
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See for me the idea of wrestling involves throws. It involves being able to throw someone without getting penalized or disqualified like in folkstyle. What your talking about sound more like grappling.... |
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| huntfishwrestle | Aug 9 2012, 07:37 AM Post #37 |
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Fantastic
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I know you love the international styles, but folkstyle can be fast and exciting. Greco can be slow and boring. Calling someone nuts for their opinion is nuts. Any wrestling style can be slowed down. At least Folkstyle has stalling to try and make people take risks and work harder. Greco has the push out, yippee! |
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| AVERAGE JOE | Aug 9 2012, 08:36 AM Post #38 |
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Why not just change our Folkstyle in high school and College to the world style of FREESTYLE?? |
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| CalWarriorFan | Aug 9 2012, 10:54 AM Post #39 |
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Fantastic
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Hasn't this been talked about in the past? Could make us more successful on the international circuit! I would be open to this! |
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| ivanputzke | Aug 9 2012, 11:08 AM Post #40 |
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No way. Would totally be opposed to this and participation would go way down. |
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| CalWarriorFan | Aug 9 2012, 12:41 PM Post #41 |
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Fantastic
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Why do you think that participation would go way down? I think you speak with a lot of current high school folkstylers they might let you know that they prefer the offseason freestyle to the inseason folkstyle. I'm fine with what we have going on now. I'm just saying, if we want to be more successful in the international styles in the Olympics, this would be a possible way. |
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| Iowan@heart | Aug 9 2012, 01:03 PM Post #42 |
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Fantastic
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What would all the Gramby coaches do if we switched to freestyle? |
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| CalWarriorFan | Aug 9 2012, 02:01 PM Post #43 |
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Fantastic
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Adapt! |
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| JohnnyD | Aug 9 2012, 03:01 PM Post #44 |
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Participation might go down, lots of parents don't like the idea of their kids getting launched onto their neck....International styles tend to reward that kind of behavior, haha... |
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| CalWarriorFan | Aug 9 2012, 03:45 PM Post #45 |
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Fantastic
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Can't get launched in folkstyle? I just want everyone to know, I prefer folkstyle out of all the options, and it really isn't close. But if we do really want to compete on the international level, I would be fine with moving to freestyle because I feel that freestyle and folkstyle resemble each other the most and their tends to be more action in freestyle than greco in my opinion. I would like to see us compete better in the international styles and I really think the only way for that to occur is for our athletes to decide to do what McCauley is doing or high school and college making their wrestling be freestyle or greco. |
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| TPar04 | Aug 9 2012, 05:20 PM Post #46 |
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I would be in favor of Freestyle or Greco in high school wrestling. I couldn't wait for Folkstyle to be over and get to the real fun. FIVES the higher you throw them the better! Way more exciting IMO.
Edited by TPar04, Aug 9 2012, 05:21 PM.
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| ivanputzke | Aug 9 2012, 09:52 PM Post #47 |
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No doubt there are High School wrestlers that prefer Freestyle over Folkstyle, I won't deny that. But I would bet that of the total High School participants the percentage would be under 10%. Now if it were just freestyle there would still be a large number coming out just because it's wrestling. I just don't think you could make a case that freestyle would bring in the same amount of participation. If you ask most wrestlers in your room a prevailing attitude is they don't like it. I think part of it is an excuse to not continue to wrestle in the offseason, but I also think it's because kids grew up on folkstyle and it's not recognized as much as folkstyle is from the youngest stages. If you look at the numbers in youth, folkstyle kills freestyle/greco in participation. I know there are variables like how long the season is and spring/summer compared to winter, but it's still an overwelming number. In order to make a change over work they would have to start at the youth level and I just think that's a non starter from the beginning. |
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| ivanputzke | Aug 9 2012, 09:58 PM Post #48 |
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I would also add that there is no reason why the U.S. shouldn't be doing better on the International stage. It's not a matter of folkstyle or freestyle. In the past the U.S. has always been one of the top countries in freestyle. I do think that new rules hurt the U.S. and the sport. I have a big problem with two minute periods (which is basically 1:30) that does not lead to taking chances and does not reward superior conditioning. I do not like the winner of two out of three periods takes the match. I do like the push out rule, but wish they would punish the wrestler who is always backing into the passivity zone but not stepping out of bounds. |
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| Auggie4Life | Aug 10 2012, 10:24 PM Post #49 |
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Don't get me started on the "push out rule". Yes, I understand the "idea" of this rule is to encourage more action and less backing out on the edge of the mat....in higher levels of competition. However, this rule is absolutely ridiculous in lower levels of competition. It's even more ridiculous when you are wrestling on less-than-full surfaces, like half and quarter mats. This rule makes me puke every time I see it at a youth Greco/Freestyle Tournament. It's nothing but sumo wrestle. If the international community is going to insist on this rule, it should at least be modified to require an offensive hold or lock of some sort while in the process of going off the mat. That could include a single leg, underhook, headlock, something other than a "push out". In folkstyle, a push out by the inside wrestler can be consider stalling just as much as an outside wrestler backing off the mat. Pushing is not offense, and it should not be rewarded. |
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| Auggie4Life | Aug 10 2012, 10:39 PM Post #50 |
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Don't get my post confused now. I'm not looking for ways for America to necessarily be more successful at wrestling. Wrestling is one of the most diverse sports in the Olympics with many participating countries. 6 countries have take Gold out of 13 thus far, and 26 nations have medaled. Russia is probably the closest to dominant, but that isn't always the case. I would be more into it for the excitement, particularly in dual meet format. To me, there's nothing more entertaining than a great dual meet. Even seeing two National Champions or State Champions squaring off doesn't compare to a dramatic dual meet. |
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| ivanputzke | Aug 11 2012, 06:58 AM Post #51 |
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If the Olympics can have team ping pong they certainly should have team wrestling. It would add a level of excitement that is for sure. |
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| Tiny Tornado | Aug 11 2012, 10:01 AM Post #52 |
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Ivan Putzke; I would definately have to disagree with your statement ; "in the past, the US has always been one of the top countries in freestyle..." when would that have been, because I don't recall ? the US will continue to gain on the rest of the world, particularly in greco if we could find/continue funding for the usoec program- It doesn't have to be in Michigan, it just has to be somewhere, or even multiple sites- Betts-Lester-Mango-Provisor-Coleman-Adam Wheeler (2008), etc- they all were in that program, and had the training that put them at the top of the ladder in the US, making them Olympians- they didn't perform as well in London, as expected, it happens- but it doesn't mean the program isn't working- there were NO COLLEGE guys who were anywhere close to beating them at trials, NONE- so for greco, we need to continue the course that's been started- as far as freestyle ? many of our Olympians are college veterans, and yes were folkstyle champions- but it dpoesn't mean that wrestling college folkstyle is a neccessity- I believe guys like McCauley are the future stars of freestyle- he moved to the OTC to continue the same path, I would love to see many more like him make the committment- here in the US (and Canada) folkstyle is popluar, and well liked- I highly doubt a change to freestyle would ever happen at the HS or college level- we don't need that to change-kids who really want to wrestle fs/greco will always find plenty of opportunity-they will also have plenty of opportunity to train in the off-season in other ways, if that is what they prefer- I highly doubt the international wrestlind community would be at all interested in adopting folkstyle into the olympics- I think i read another post, they said that before a sport is added, it has to have participation in at least 65 countries ? :blink: so, NO- push-out rule ? LOVE it - get in the middle of the mat, where you belong.... Edited by Tiny Tornado, Aug 11 2012, 10:17 AM.
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| ivanputzke | Aug 11 2012, 10:16 AM Post #53 |
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70's, 80's and 90's. There have been years when the U.S. won numerous medals on the world stage in a given year. Ever since they changed to 7 weights they haven't done as well, but before that they have done very well. I'm don't have time to go over every year, but I do recall back in the day (yes that ages me) where the U.S. has had quite a bit of success and in fact had the best World team a few of those years. I would like to also say that Coleman Scott is a prime example how the two minute periods has hurt the U.S.. No longer is superior conditioning a big factor in winning matches. That's my opinion. These are elite athletes that are wrestling as long as Cadets and Juniors. In my opinion that's the biggest joke of all. I watched as the Russians or eastern block nations just clamp on and counter wrestle, too many matches the better conditioned wrestler doesn't get rewarded. |
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| Tiny Tornado | Aug 11 2012, 10:20 AM Post #54 |
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it's been said that american's focus too much on conditioning and not enough on technique- the wrestler with the better technique is the one who shows superiority, and should win.... |
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| ivanputzke | Aug 11 2012, 10:21 AM Post #55 |
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65 countries need to do the sport in order to be an Olympic sport? What a crock. Badminton, ping pong are activities that you do at a barbeque. Ok....maybe they can have some place, but what's next Boche ball? Why do they have team ping pong? It was mentioned before, and I agree, it would be exciting to have a team event with wrestling. And while I'm ranting, they should add more weights...and stop with the two bronze medals bullcrap. Okay, I'm done. :P |
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| ivanputzke | Aug 11 2012, 10:24 AM Post #56 |
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Conditioning and technique doesn't have to be an either or. It's also been said that the longer the match the better wrestler will prevail. Conditioning is a HUGE part of wrestling and it usually goes hand in hand with technique. Coleman Scott was the better wrestler in technique, aggressiveness and conditioning. The opponent didn't take risks and was your classic counter wrestler. |
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| Tiny Tornado | Aug 11 2012, 10:28 AM Post #57 |
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I was ecstatic when they added women's wrestling to the Olympics- but not when they took away some of the men's weights in order to accomodate it- totally bs- not the women's fault, but what other sport did they diminish the men's opportunites to add the women's ? I dont know who posted that, but I thought it funny, too- 65 countries ? and as I'm watching synchronized swimming, and rythmic gymnstics and badminton and all those other "silly" sports on nbc, I'm thinking- where's all the WRESTLING COVERAGE ? very dissapointing to say the least.... |
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| Tiny Tornado | Aug 11 2012, 10:30 AM Post #58 |
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wish i could have watched the freestyle online, but was busy watching live greco practice at the usoec - so happy day for me B) Edited by Tiny Tornado, Aug 11 2012, 10:30 AM.
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| ivanputzke | Aug 11 2012, 10:33 AM Post #59 |
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Agreed. You know, I can handle watching the silly back yard sports if an American is competing, but to sit here and watch american wrestlers on the computer while Japan and whoever is playing volleyball or France and Serbia are playing handball...and that's on TV? Complete bullcrap. |
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| Auggie4Life | Aug 11 2012, 10:55 AM Post #60 |
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I don't follow international wrestling like some people, so I'm not an expert. But, I didn't think there was a direct correlation between the weight changes, and adding women's wrestling. How was women's wrestling accomodated by reducing the number of men's weights? That doesn't make sense to me. They're not wrestling each other. |
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8:35 AM Jul 11