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Why do I try to like this crap?
Topic Started: Aug 11 2012, 01:36 PM (2,919 Views)
18576
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Fantastic
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Every time I try to watch international wrestling, I just end up disgusted. From the ball draw to just plain crappy officiating, I can't stand it.
Did anyone watch the Herbert match vs Azebajaan (sp?). The match should have been 3-3 and they show it on replay and somehow by magic, the Azerbajaan wrestler wins 6-0.
Can't stand it. Also, the europeans stall like crazy, no, they don't get pushed out but are rewarded for no action. I've always heard it argued that freestyle has so much more action than collegiate style, I'm still waiting to see it after most of a life time.
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Auggie4Life
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It's not the officiating. It's the style(s). I'm telling you, it's part wrestling, part gymnastics.
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SEMNWrestling
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If you think that's bad I guess you should watch Herbert's next match because according to themat.com he ended up losing after points that clearly should have been his were somehow awarded to his opponent yet again!

"Herbert turned Bolukasi in the third period and was holding him on his back for points for about 30 seconds, but then Bolukasi was inexplicably awarded three points in the exchange."

"'I’m very disappointed,' Herbert said of the bronze match. 'You turn a guy and hold him on his back and they give him three points for it. That's tough for anybody to come back from. They just gave it to him. The guy put two hands on my head which is illegal, and they end up giving him three points. It stinks. The same thing happened to me in the quarters. I don't understand it.'"

Now scoring from the bottom is one thing but scoring while being held on your back takes real talent! If I would have known how to do that I would have taken state...

But in all seriousness, to lose like that not only once but twice, after working so hard for so long, is just a crime. Seems like nobody knew what was going on and the refs were just a joke.
Edited by SEMNWrestling, Aug 11 2012, 05:16 PM.
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JohnnyD
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I couldnt agree more. That was very frustrating Herbert was working hard for offense every single second and was rewarded was some pretty sketchy officiating. However, with that said, if I'm truely being objective, I can understand where all the points came from. I dont agree with the calls, but I do see what the refs were looking at.

When Herbert had him on his back, it was basically a tilt. He was on top and went for a high gut then just kinda pulled him over with his feet just like many folkstyle tilts you would see. However, what the ref was saying was that Herbert was the one with his back exposed. See we think this is ridiculous because we think you should need to have control to score points, but I'm not sure this is a very commonly held notion in international wrestling. I watched a ton of olympic wrestling over the past week, and there were many times I jumped out of my seat criticizing the refs, but by the end I started to notice some consistency in how they were calling certain positions. Now if all the wrestlers are aware of how these things are being scored than I would have to say its legit. Not Herberts match though, he really did get screwed, there is really no other way to look at that.
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zeus
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Herbert wrestles the way fila would like to make the sport all about. He is aggressive and was rewarded with a screw job.
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stmabooster
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JohnnyD
Aug 11 2012, 07:39 PM
I couldnt agree more. That was very frustrating Herbert was working hard for offense every single second and was rewarded was some pretty sketchy officiating. However, with that said, if I'm truely being objective, I can understand where all the points came from. I dont agree with the calls, but I do see what the refs were looking at.

When Herbert had him on his back, it was basically a tilt. He was on top and went for a high gut then just kinda pulled him over with his feet just like many folkstyle tilts you would see. However, what the ref was saying was that Herbert was the one with his back exposed. See we think this is ridiculous because we think you should need to have control to score points, but I'm not sure this is a very commonly held notion in international wrestling. I watched a ton of olympic wrestling over the past week, and there were many times I jumped out of my seat criticizing the refs, but by the end I started to notice some consistency in how they were calling certain positions. Now if all the wrestlers are aware of how these things are being scored than I would have to say its legit. Not Herberts match though, he really did get screwed, there is really no other way to look at that.
I don't understand why they didn't challenge that scoring? I honestly thought the rest of the freestyle wrestling was amazing! the bronze medal match today where the Cuban threw the Azerbaijan wrestler with 15 seconds left was unbelievable. Two golds and a bronze for America is very exciting.
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Iowan@heart
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Up until now, I have never criticized officials but after watiching a couple dozen matches on the internet, my opinion is that the officiating that it was terrible. The refs looked totally inept. Stopping action and pointing at wrestlers and calling attention constantly during matches when it means absolutely nothing just looks ridiculous. I've been a USA wrestling official for 30 years and it looked embarassing to me.
Edited by Iowan@heart, Aug 14 2012, 11:50 AM.
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wrestler4ever
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I haven't watched freestyle for quite awhile and I agree with many of you that it just isn't the same. I am all about change but think they need to revisit their rules.

With that said, how could you not get excited watching Burroughs? Even though he received pts for push outs I think that is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen in my 40 years of following the sport.
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going4it
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I find it to be embarrassing that I have people that I know come up and ask what the deal is with wrestling in the Olympics. People don't get it and if the common person is confused they will not watch it. People are trying to get into it but with these rules its hurting the sport. I just laugh and tell them its gotten so bad that a wrestler doesn't even need to score an offensive point. That's not wrestling.
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WrestleMe
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going4it
Aug 14 2012, 08:38 AM
I find it to be embarrassing that I have people that I know come up and ask what the deal is with wrestling in the Olympics. People don't get it and if the common person is confused they will not watch it. People are trying to get into it but with these rules its hurting the sport. I just laugh and tell them its gotten so bad that a wrestler doesn't even need to score an offensive point. That's not wrestling.
The exact same thing happened to me. I got two phone calls while Varner's semi-final was being televised. These people both badly wanted to understand and enjoy the sport, but I couldn't help them a whole lot as I am not a fan of the lack of action. There has to simple rules to encourage action and scoring.
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LJG
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WrestleMe
Aug 14 2012, 10:21 AM
going4it
Aug 14 2012, 08:38 AM
I find it to be embarrassing that I have people that I know come up and ask what the deal is with wrestling in the Olympics. People don't get it and if the common person is confused they will not watch it. People are trying to get into it but with these rules its hurting the sport. I just laugh and tell them its gotten so bad that a wrestler doesn't even need to score an offensive point. That's not wrestling.
The exact same thing happened to me. I got two phone calls while Varner's semi-final was being televised. These people both badly wanted to understand and enjoy the sport, but I couldn't help them a whole lot as I am not a fan of the lack of action. There has to simple rules to encourage action and scoring.
I agree with all the concerns/criticisms of this caliber of FS/GR wrestling, the lack of offensive action, and the often perplexing interpretation of the rules. However, I hope that watching this stuff in the Olympics does not discourage parents from getting their kids involved at the local/state level. It is a fact (in my world at least, which is all that counts) that FS/GS does improve the typical folkstyle wrestler. Encourage your kids to try it, despite the weirdness of FILA elite level wrestling. Also, the level of excitement for the spectator can be off the charts at our kids MNUSA events, as exemplified by the typical Mitchell McKee match.
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Tiny Tornado
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Thank you ! I'm trying not to get upset when I read all the negative feedback, and I have to remind myself, that most ? or least many of the people commenting negatively are those who:
never went to Vegas, or Cleveland, or NYAC, Sunkist, etc and have NEVER watched FS/GR at the Senior level live- so what they saw came as a surprise to them; for those of us who watch it all the time on the internet or by traveling to University Nationals, Senior tournaments, etc- we've witnessed the changes in the rules happen, and gradually change the way matches play out- so it's become normal to us- I would ask that people still support our US Senior level athletes- they didn't choose these rules-
but they love competing for the USA, rules be darned- they have no choice about the rules or the officiating, but since it's their desire and their passion to continue training and working toward getting to Rio in 2016, i would hope we could support them in that effort- it's FILA that we can be disappointed in, not our US athletes.There's also a good possibility that FILA will vote to change the rules AGAIN< following these past games.... :blink:
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Aug 14 2012, 12:30 PM.
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going4it
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Tiny I fully support the athletes. They do not make the rules and I would guess everyone else feels the same way. FILA seems content in taking away any casual viewer that this sport may have. I had to tell people who asked me about the sport that its not even close to the sport that it once was. It honestly does not look anything like it did. It's a total different sport as far as I am concerned.
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Tiny Tornado
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I think that's how most feel- it's the rules, the interpretation of the rules, and the weird officiating that has people scratching their head- there was cheating going on by other countries, so they took away the disc ( loaded weight on one side) - so they went to the ball-grab- there was cheating going on with the calling of passivity, too much favoritism- so they went to the red on top 1st period, blue on top second period for greco- next change, if a point gets scored, then they don't automatically go to par terre- all these changeds were SUPPOSED to INCREASE the action - they were intended to make us see more throws, and more action on the feet, thus more exciting matches- instead the athletes figured out a way to do less than before- so our athletes of course are going to do what everybody else does, which is hand-fight, pummel for position, if there's nothing there you don't throw anybody cuz it's risky, so take your chances that you can turn/lift and throw the guy, and rely on your own par terre defense to not let him turn/lift you- simple, that's how to win- but unless youre the mom, dad or partner to one of the wrestlers, i suppose it's just not as exciting- personally, when I'm watching it, I'm squirming like that gymnast's mom- but then again, this is what I'm used to, and expecting-
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Aug 14 2012, 01:39 PM.
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ivanputzke
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Increase the periods to three minutes and you will see more risks and more action. Unless they add time it will not be fixed.
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LJG
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I remember being at a father-son camp several years ago with Gable and the Peterson brothers about the time when some (most?) of these rules were being implemented and before I really understood anything about FS/GR. At that time, these guys were very critical of FILA and the rule changes. However, Gable's philosophy was that you deal with odd rules and inconsistent interpretation by being so dominant there is no question about who won. The thing that struck me about many of the matches I watched, even Jordan Burroughs, was that dominance was not often evident (except maybe that 19 year-old from ???), at least not in the way Gable was suggesting. Happy that Varner won gold, but 1-0, 1-0 in the finals is not dominance in the Gable tradition. I agree that FILA rules and interpretation are at the heart of this problem, but I also wondered, sitting in the LazyBoy eating Cheetos, if our USA wrestler's take Gable's message to heart. Easier said than done I guess.
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wrestler4ever
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I dont think anyone is knocking the wrestlers themselves but just the rules and what it does for the sport. I remember training at the Olympic training center in Colorado while the trials were going on several years ago and the action was phenomenal. I didn't see anything like that in this Olympics.

Don't get me wrong, I was extremely intense and excited watching our wrestlers I just don't think it is true wrestling, compared to years past, in my opinion. I think it hurts freestyle. Does anyone know if the freestyle numbers are gaining, declining or about the same?
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Emmett Grogan
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For all these complaints about officiating, rules, etc, I can't help but noticing that Burroughs didn't have any of these problems, If anything, this style has made Jake Varner much more active on his feet than he was anytime in college. International freestyle today is all about setting up, initiating, and quickly finishing takedowns. If you can work a turn on the finish all well and good but unfortunately, for a lot of folkstyle fans, the takedown and countering the takedown is it. I'm a big fan of takedowns so I enjoy watching internatioal matches. As to the scoring on mat roll arounds, I read something a few years ago where Dan Gable recalled what the 1972 Olympic wrestling team's coach told the team that international officials were not big fans of the USA (might not be any different today) so that on the mat they should score hard and clean and not leave any question of the scoring to the officials. On takedown scoring, Burroughs starts a double leg off his knees but drives up off his knees to finish and score, Coleman Scott could very well have been in the gold medal match If he had finished a takedown attempt on his feet in the last period of his semis match.
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stmabooster
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WrestleMe
Aug 14 2012, 10:21 AM
going4it
Aug 14 2012, 08:38 AM
I find it to be embarrassing that I have people that I know come up and ask what the deal is with wrestling in the Olympics. People don't get it and if the common person is confused they will not watch it. People are trying to get into it but with these rules its hurting the sport. I just laugh and tell them its gotten so bad that a wrestler doesn't even need to score an offensive point. That's not wrestling.
The exact same thing happened to me. I got two phone calls while Varner's semi-final was being televised. These people both badly wanted to understand and enjoy the sport, but I couldn't help them a whole lot as I am not a fan of the lack of action. There has to simple rules to encourage action and scoring.
There was an amazing amount of action in these matches. The hand fighting was fierce and the athlete's were doing everything in their power to create an advantage for them to attack. The difference at this level is the defense is so good that if a wrestler shoots when a shot is not there, you can almost guarantee a score from a counter attack. My suggestion is to watch the match and just sit back and appreciate the excellence. It is different wrestling at this level compared to high school or even any level of college wrestling.
Wrestling has always had a problem that at the highest level, defense negates offense and the scoring disappears. I have always said that is a very similar problem that soccer has. Go to a high school wrestling match and there is scoring all over the place. Go to a high school soccer game and there is scoring all over the place. At that level, offense is ahead of defense. The higher up you go in either sport, the more defense starts to overtake offense and the scoring disappears.
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thepilgrim
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The wrestling skills demonstrated were amazing! I spent some of the best days of summer inside watching live stream and I'd do it again.

Periods should be three minutes and mats twice as big (and the officials should lose the suits).

Of all the things I watched, the 'ball draw' was the most disheartening, especially in greco where it seemed to happen after both periods. The win is by coin flip not by wrestling.

Maybe when one color is drawn for the first period it should be the other color for the second period.
Maybe five counters (backward steps) without an offensive move should cost a point.
Maybe no scoring means neither wrestler advances.

What do our current elite wrestlers and coaches think? They are the most affected.
Edited by thepilgrim, Aug 15 2012, 08:35 AM.
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PINnacle
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The wrestling was AWESOME! I thought there was a ton of action, and with the periods, you can't just hold on to a 3 pt lead anymore. I personally thought Herbert's first match was scored correctly - that guy shot the double, Herbert never stopped his feet from moving and didn't take the double "away" and i don't think that guy exposed Herbert. 3 for the foreigner and 2 for the tilt, 1 for the failed challenge.
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WrestleMe
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stmabooster
Aug 15 2012, 07:53 AM
WrestleMe
Aug 14 2012, 10:21 AM
going4it
Aug 14 2012, 08:38 AM
I find it to be embarrassing that I have people that I know come up and ask what the deal is with wrestling in the Olympics. People don't get it and if the common person is confused they will not watch it. People are trying to get into it but with these rules its hurting the sport. I just laugh and tell them its gotten so bad that a wrestler doesn't even need to score an offensive point. That's not wrestling.
The exact same thing happened to me. I got two phone calls while Varner's semi-final was being televised. These people both badly wanted to understand and enjoy the sport, but I couldn't help them a whole lot as I am not a fan of the lack of action. There has to simple rules to encourage action and scoring.
There was an amazing amount of action in these matches. The hand fighting was fierce and the athlete's were doing everything in their power to create an advantage for them to attack. The difference at this level is the defense is so good that if a wrestler shoots when a shot is not there, you can almost guarantee a score from a counter attack. My suggestion is to watch the match and just sit back and appreciate the excellence. It is different wrestling at this level compared to high school or even any level of college wrestling.
Wrestling has always had a problem that at the highest level, defense negates offense and the scoring disappears. I have always said that is a very similar problem that soccer has. Go to a high school wrestling match and there is scoring all over the place. Go to a high school soccer game and there is scoring all over the place. At that level, offense is ahead of defense. The higher up you go in either sport, the more defense starts to overtake offense and the scoring disappears.
I don't disagree. I think the point being made is that wrestling will have a difficult time attracting a person with a non-wrestling background to the sport. Even if a person's only exposure to wrestling was as a high school wrestler, its likely he'd have difficulty understanding the current scoring/system.
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Tiny Tornado
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but not if he/she wrestles any fs/gr in Minnesota :$
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Aug 15 2012, 01:23 PM.
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WrestleMe
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Tiny Tornado
Aug 15 2012, 01:23 PM
but not if he/she wrestles any fs/gr in Minnesota :$
So back to attracting new fans........... B)
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J Nalan
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I really enjoyed the Olympic wrestling. Greco, freestyle and womens were all action packed and exciting. I'm glad I watched it and will be watching it again next time.
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LJG
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stmabooster
Aug 15 2012, 07:53 AM
WrestleMe
Aug 14 2012, 10:21 AM
going4it
Aug 14 2012, 08:38 AM
I find it to be embarrassing that I have people that I know come up and ask what the deal is with wrestling in the Olympics. People don't get it and if the common person is confused they will not watch it. People are trying to get into it but with these rules its hurting the sport. I just laugh and tell them its gotten so bad that a wrestler doesn't even need to score an offensive point. That's not wrestling.
The exact same thing happened to me. I got two phone calls while Varner's semi-final was being televised. These people both badly wanted to understand and enjoy the sport, but I couldn't help them a whole lot as I am not a fan of the lack of action. There has to simple rules to encourage action and scoring.
There was an amazing amount of action in these matches. The hand fighting was fierce and the athlete's were doing everything in their power to create an advantage for them to attack. The difference at this level is the defense is so good that if a wrestler shoots when a shot is not there, you can almost guarantee a score from a counter attack. My suggestion is to watch the match and just sit back and appreciate the excellence. It is different wrestling at this level compared to high school or even any level of college wrestling.
Wrestling has always had a problem that at the highest level, defense negates offense and the scoring disappears. I have always said that is a very similar problem that soccer has. Go to a high school wrestling match and there is scoring all over the place. Go to a high school soccer game and there is scoring all over the place. At that level, offense is ahead of defense. The higher up you go in either sport, the more defense starts to overtake offense and the scoring disappears.
All this is true and the analogy to soccer is a great one. I did appreciate what was going on defensively in these matches and why they are different than lower level wrestling, and I watched all I could. And the same holds true when I watch international soccer; I don't much care if there is not a lot of scoring because I understand and appreciate what is taking place to prevent the goals. However, in terms of attracting new fans to the sport, both international wrestling and soccer leave something to be desired, which is at the heart of the problem identified in the original post, and which trickles down to poor support at the high school level at least. Americans want to see scoring, and a lot of it, in their sports. Perhaps if Olympic (really FILA) wrestling was more offensively exciting, there would be more new fans attracted to the sport. Or maybe not? I am just thinking a lot these days about how to increase fan support for our HS/MS program in this hockey crazy town. Perhaps exciting Olympic wrestling (to the novice fan) would have helped.
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Tiny Tornado
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Another chance to like this :

Saturday August 18th- University World Team Trials - Minnesota Storm in the house:

FREESTYLE:
Z Sanders 55k
C Dardanes 60
K LeValley 66
N Dardanes 66
K Steinhaus 84
Scott Schiller 96
T Lehmann 96 ( unattached)
T Nelson 120
----------------------------------------------------------
GRECO:

mike Fuenffinger 55k
Paul Tellgren 60
Z Nielsen 84
J Bauman 96
P Betts 120

Jason Bryant will NOT be there broadcasting the matches; as he's spending some much needed and deserved
time catching up with his wife and new baby daughter- however he told me the matches will be taped and later
posted so people can watch them -
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Aug 16 2012, 12:28 PM.
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going4it
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Where is this held??
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Tiny Tornado
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Palmer High School Colorado Springs, Co.

all weigh in's friday 8/17-
qualification tournament Saturday 8/18 , then best 2 out of 3 finals Saturday 5 pm
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Abe Froeman
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Not sure if this came up already...but every olympics this question comes up from at least one "non-wrestling" person I know...

"Why, if the whole world wrestles Freestyle/Greco does the U.S. still have Folkstyle?"
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