Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Guillotine Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.

If you join our community, you'll be able to use many member-only features such as posting messages, customizing your profile, sending personal messages, voting in polls, and fewer ads.

Email forum@theguillotine.com to find out how to get an account.

If you're already a member please log in:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
MN USA Juniors state; FreCo
Topic Started: Jan 29 2013, 04:26 PM (6,265 Views)
Unit
Member Avatar
Fantastic
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I will always stand by my Greco Rock.
A true balanced wrestler must know all three arts.
Greco being the foundation.
Greco is the art of position fighting and as in the bible the match was 30 days long. Love to go into detail but these types of dialogue is conducted in person.
Greco seeks no rest when the whistle blows.
Our Olympic hopes rest in the worlds oldest sport of Greco Roman combat.

Going over all the weights and results I feel MN/USA has a good out look in Fargo with some hardcore training.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chinggis
No Avatar
Wrestling Fan
[ *  *  * ]
Regarding vertical pairing vs advancement brackets, (let's assume we could rank all the wrestlers and they would perform as expected)...

* The third best could be 2 and done in vertical pairing

* The fourth best can be 2 and done in typical advancement style brackets

That doesn't bother me too much. What frustrates me is trying to explain to wrestlers and parents how they work. You can't just walk up and easily understand what the current state of the bracket is. Whenever I or anyone else questions the use of these, the response is always tough titty, that is how the cool Europeans do it so that is how we will do it (just like counting with your thumb first). We apparently don't give a damn how hard it is to assimilate wrestlers into these styles.

Here is what I think. Let's drop the vertical pairing and go to advancement style brackets. My seven year old daughter could be THE paring official for advancement bracket tourneys, vertical pairing requires a team with serious training.

I don't even know of any intl tournament that still uses them? FILA (in their infinite wisdom) actually adopted something even stupider than vertical pairing (advancement brackets with follow the winner consolation and *TWO* third places and *TWO* fifths). I guess I should just be happy the local tournaments aren't following that style yet.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MNUSA Wrestling
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Thanks for your input on the bracketing. Note, the rules for how a tournament is paired is not determined by MN/USA Wrestling. The procedures are established by FILA with USA modifications and can be found within the following document http://www.themat.com/forms/Rulebook.pdf. Wrestlers are placed on the bracket based on their draw number that is assigned randomly by the computer program. It is true that sometimes a wrestler’s draw is not very favorable, and sometimes the very experienced wrestlers end up in the same pool and inexperienced wrestlers in the other pool, but that is what can occur when a tournament is not seeded (which is not uncommon e.g., High School State tournament).

However within a pool, in order to place; all wrestlers would have had to wrestle each other, as the top three from each pool go into a Round Robin to determine 1st, 2nd or 3rd. In that round, each wrestler earns points based on their match with each opponent. If they faced each other earlier in the tournament, their points are carried forward. If they have not faced each other, then they compete in the Round Robin. There is not an instance where a wrestler can earn a top 3 place finish within a pool without competing against another individual within that pool’s top three.

If you have an example where that is not a true statement, please share it with us, but I think if you re-review the bracket, you will notice that the top three in each pool did actually wrestle each other at some point during the tournament.

MN/USA Wrestling
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sharkey
Member Avatar
Fantastic
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
MNUSA Wrestling
Apr 29 2013, 08:00 PM
If you have an example where that is not a true statement, please share it with us, but I think if you re-review the bracket, you will notice that the top three in each pool did actually wrestle each other at some point during the tournament.

MN/USA Wrestling
I don't want to argue about this, but I do want you to understand what people are saying. In the brackets used at MN/USA last weekend, a wrestler was eliminated when they lost twice. If the third best wrestler at the tournament loses his first two matches to the best and second best, he's eliminated and does not place. You're right that the top three placers wrestle each other, but a better wrestler can be eliminated before the round robin while a lesser wrestler advances because of luck. The same is true at high school state. The third best wrestler in the state can go 0-2 and the tenth best can get a silver medal, all because of luck.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tiny Tornado
Member Avatar
Tiny Tornado
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Never mind ^o)
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 29 2013, 09:35 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chinggis
No Avatar
Wrestling Fan
[ *  *  * ]
Sharkey
 
The same is true at high school state. The third best wrestler in the state can go 0-2 and the tenth best can get a silver medal, all because of luck.


This is simply not true. The #3 CANNOT be eliminated in two matches in line advancement unless he/she loses to a lesser wrestler. This CAN happen in vertical pairing. Let me draw some pictures of the top side of a bracket.

Example A, #3 would go back to wrestle #4:
-1
-1
-3

-2
-2
-4

Example B, again, #3 would go back to wrestle #4:
-1
-1
-4

-2
-2
-3

The following vertical pair would eliminate #3 right after two matches (some caveats to how many more wrestlers are in the pool):
-4
-1
-2
-3
Rd 1: 4 v 1 and 2 v 3
Rd 2: 4 v 2 and 1 v 3
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chinggis
No Avatar
Wrestling Fan
[ *  *  * ]
@MNUSA Wrestling, does the rule book state that vertical pairing is the only pairing method for tournament set up? USAW obviously doesn't always use it and there is a detailed description of double elimination line advancement brackets in the rule book. The top of the rule book also states the following:

"Not all aspects of the international rules are adhered to, and local and state conducted events may include other modifications."

I always assumed the promoter made the decision on which bracketing system to employ.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 TON
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Is individual seeded at high school state?

Team is at section and individual is at section.
Edited by 1 TON, Apr 30 2013, 11:08 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
atlantachamp
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
1 TON
Apr 30 2013, 11:02 AM
Sharkey also not true because high school is seeded. Not applicable to this discussion, but lets not go saying MNUSA brackets are the same as high school state.
Individual is not seeded but team is. The top 4 teams are seeded.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sharkey
Member Avatar
Fantastic
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Chinggis
Apr 30 2013, 09:08 AM
Sharkey
 
The same is true at high school state. The third best wrestler in the state can go 0-2 and the tenth best can get a silver medal, all because of luck.


This is simply not true. The #3 CANNOT be eliminated in two matches in line advancement unless he/she loses to a lesser wrestler. This CAN happen in vertical pairing. Let me draw some pictures of the top side of a bracket.

Let me be more clear. I'm talking about the third best wrestler, not the one who finishes in third place. There is a big difference between the two.

A good example from last weekend would be Evan Caldon at 138 in freestyle. I feel pretty comfortable saying he was one of the six best wrestlers there, but ended up 0-2.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chinggis
No Avatar
Wrestling Fan
[ *  *  * ]
I know what you meant and I agree with your point regarding the freestyle tournament. I'm arguing with your point about the same thing being possible at the High School State Tourney(folk). At that tournament, it is not possible without an upset.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 TON
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Two scenarios that make a pool style bracket worse than a high school style bracket.

1. Wrestler A is eliminated after 2 rounds by wrestling the First and Second best wrestlers. One guy gets screwed.

2. Wrestler A AND wrestler B are both eliminated after 2 rounds by wrestling the First and Second best wrestlers. Two guys get screwed.


Neither of those could happen in a high school style bracket (without upsets).

Now tell me where the pool style bracket is better.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Simley8
No Avatar
Fantastic
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
1 TON
Apr 30 2013, 02:07 PM
Two scenarios that make a pool style bracket worse than a high school style bracket.

1. Wrestler A is eliminated after 2 rounds by wrestling the First and Second best wrestlers. One guy gets screwed.

2. Wrestler A AND wrestler B are both eliminated after 2 rounds by wrestling the First and Second best wrestlers. Two guys get screwed.


Neither of those could happen in a high school style bracket (without upsets).

Now tell me where the pool style bracket is better.
Agreed, don't like the two pools.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sharkey
Member Avatar
Fantastic
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Chinggis
Apr 30 2013, 01:20 PM
I know what you meant and I agree with your point regarding the freestyle tournament. I'm arguing with your point about the same thing being possible at the High School State Tourney(folk). At that tournament, it is not possible without an upset.
Okay, I thought you were saying the opposite.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TGross
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Sharkey
Apr 30 2013, 12:01 PM
Chinggis
Apr 30 2013, 09:08 AM
Sharkey
 
The same is true at high school state. The third best wrestler in the state can go 0-2 and the tenth best can get a silver medal, all because of luck.


This is simply not true. The #3 CANNOT be eliminated in two matches in line advancement unless he/she loses to a lesser wrestler. This CAN happen in vertical pairing. Let me draw some pictures of the top side of a bracket.

Let me be more clear. I'm talking about the third best wrestler, not the one who finishes in third place. There is a big difference between the two.

A good example from last weekend would be Evan Caldon at 138 in freestyle. I feel pretty comfortable saying he was one of the six best wrestlers there, but ended up 0-2.
I think there are guys who may be considered top six that could go 0-2 in both types of brackets depending on the draw.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TGross
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
1 TON
Apr 30 2013, 02:07 PM
Two scenarios that make a pool style bracket worse than a high school style bracket.

1. Wrestler A is eliminated after 2 rounds by wrestling the First and Second best wrestlers. One guy gets screwed.

2. Wrestler A AND wrestler B are both eliminated after 2 rounds by wrestling the First and Second best wrestlers. Two guys get screwed.


Neither of those could happen in a high school style bracket (without upsets).

Now tell me where the pool style bracket is better.
I believe there positives and negatives to both.

If you want to look at the 138 bracket, it looks like one side is much more difficult than the other side. So a negative is that it may seem not to be fair. If someone wants to get matches against the best wrestlers in the state, I think this show that a person has a much better opportunity in this bracket. Gliva had 7 matches in this bracket, 7 wrestlers had a chance to beat him and learn from wrestling him. In a straight line bracket, he would have only had 4 matches.

The positive side to pools are there are opportunities for more matches and typically you get more matches against the better wrestlers. If you had a perfect draw, the #1 wrestler would get to wrestle #2, #4, #5, and #2 would wrestle #1, #3, #6, just looking at the top 6 wrestlers.

My son's have had some tough draws over the years and have maybe had a few breaks. When you used to have to qualify for freestyle state at region, my son went 0-2 at regions, but still took 4th at state. Lucky back then there was a wild-card. The two kids he lost to took 1st and 3rd at state, mainly because they were on the same side of the bracket at state too. He has also taken 3rd at tournaments when he has beaten the 2nd place finisher on several occasions.

Sometimes it is just better to try to get quality matches for the kids even if it happens in the first two rounds. I know it would be nice if the best wrestlers placed in the correct order, but usually the the draw won't be even.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
The same bracketing has been used for Freestyle and Greco tournaments at the local, state and national levels since I started wrestling in 1996. The rules have changed dramatically over the years but never the bracketing. That is the nature of the beast. Random draw is more fair, even if brackets are more often lopsided. Bracket seeding has proven to be terribly innacurate in various tournament brackets every year, even at the Xmas tourney.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 TON
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Show some concepts of why Freestyle brackets are better. Your opinion if they are good is no more valid than my opinion that they suck.

I've shown a couple reasons why they are worse.

The best defense of Freestyle brackets so far is that basically the champion in both styles this weekend would have had to wrestle roughly 14 matches in 2 days? That is over a third of an entire High School season.
Edited by 1 TON, May 1 2013, 08:32 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
1 TON
May 1 2013, 08:25 AM
Show some concepts of why Freestyle brackets are better. Your opinion if they are good is no more valid than my opinion that they suck.

I've shown a couple reasons why they are worse.

The best defense of Freestyle brackets so far is that basically the champion in both styles this weekend would have had to wrestle roughly 14 matches in 2 days? That is over a third of an entire High School season.
The number of matches are what make summer wrestling so great. Don't forget that the champ in both styles likely only wrestled fro 1-4 minutes in most of those matches.
If you random drew line brackets you can still get screwed. You might not go 0-2, but you might not place either.
I for one like the objectivity of random draw. You could go to line bracketing, but if it is random placement your 3rd and 4th best guys can still get beat out early, albeit after a couple more matches than in pool play.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Unit
Member Avatar
Fantastic
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Ever since I can remember in most every trny at a high level wrestling the FreCo styles it was a draw right after you weigh in
The only out right "its our trny" we will put all the horses in one pool and our home boys in the other pool was Cuba's cup trny.
Seen weights in Vegas if our Storm kid was in a different pool they would have got 2nd not 5th.
Senior level was bracket form in Vegas.
I think the MN state brackets with no wrestler back formula if you lost and that wrestler gets beat your out rule is a true tragety to the family.
The arguement at hand you at least get 2 matches. A chance to at least correct your plan of a attack then placing your fate in another's hands.
Edited by Unit, May 1 2013, 03:23 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 TON
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Dewey you are making my point. Some kids deserve more than 2 matches. We aren't arguing the fact that tough draws happen, we are arguing which bracket system gives kids the best chance to compete. Worst case scenario in high school brackets is the guys still don't place, but they get a couple more matches.

After driving 3-4 hrs to a match it would be nice to get as good of chance as possible to keep wrestling. I would think the object of a tournament would be to place the kids as accurately as possible.

Another scenario.

Wrestler A goes 1-1 in the first two rounds. In the third round he wrestles the number 1 guy. Doesn't happen in high school.

Still waiting for someone to show an example of how high school brackets are worse. And seeding has nothing to do with this discussion.
Edited by 1 TON, May 1 2013, 02:11 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
You are splitting hairs. What if random draw put the best 8 wrestlers on one side and the other eight on the other side? I would still be a tragedy. Pool play still gives you double elimination. The beauty of summer wrestling is you aren't separated by school enrollment and there is no seeding politics. Show up to wrestle every round.
The goal is to be tournament champion. You can keep using the old third best guy example, but what about the fourth best guy? He still gets screwed in a line bracket. What about the fifth? Sixth? How far do we need to go to try and make sure it all shakes out as planned?
I understand the travel and go 0-2 argument, but the bigger the tournament (the more matches you can expect to get when you enter), the lower odds of getting the one statistical outcome of being third best and going 0-2 anyway. It's random.
Edited by Dewey, May 1 2013, 08:19 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AD77
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jcv6mh0uok
Edited by AD77, May 2 2013, 07:26 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Are we going to split hairs here?

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 TON
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
You aren't making any valid points.

How would there be class separation or seeding politics by using a different style bracket? Also I am talking double elimination brackets.

I guess it's time to start posting pictures because why?


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Okay you win, but hardly. In double elimination random draw, you can get your four best guys on one side and the fourth best goes 0-2. I don't really see a difference between this happening to the third best vs. the fourth best.
I definitely don't see how getting as many matches as possible can be seen as a negative.
The better the top guys are separated, the better traditional bracketing works. With random draw, there is not a lot of difference. The best three guys usually make it to the round robin. There are statistical anomalies and upsets either way.
And what, there's rules on posting pictures now?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tiny Tornado
Member Avatar
Tiny Tornado
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Im confused-please explain to me, how are you fellas determining " best guy, 2nd best, 3rd best ..." ??
Isnt the guy who WINS the best ? Or are you basing this off of HS folkstyle, and assuming that because
a guy might be the best at folk, he will also be the best at FS ? Cuz, that doesnt always play out.....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
J Nalan
Member Avatar
Member #17, 619
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Dewey
May 2 2013, 05:45 AM
Okay you win, but hardly. In double elimination random draw, you can get your four best guys on one side and the fourth best goes 0-2. I don't really see a difference between this happening to the third best vs. the fourth best.

If you have a situation in a traditional bracket where everyone who loses a match goes into the wrestlebacks, cross-bracketing the first wrestleback round basically eliminates this problem.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 TON
No Avatar
Super Fan
[ *  *  *  * ]
Thanks John for posting that.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
« Previous Topic · Club/Freestyle/Greco-Roman · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2