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New Freestyle Rules?; Where did the rule change come from?
Topic Started: Mar 31 2013, 10:02 AM (1,842 Views)
Chinggis
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Yesterday at Eastview, they announced a new rule change for the pushout. I never determined where it came from, USAW, MN USA, or was it a tournament director decision?

For those not in the loop, they basically made a pushout worth a point the first time, and each successive time a caution (eventually resulting in disqualification) - if it is determined the offensive wrestler was intending to push their opponent out of bounds instead of natural wrestling aggression.

Either way, the same action should not result in both a positive and negative result. I have a lot of issues with the current rule set, but adhoc changes in the middle of the season are ridiculous.

We have two months to teach two different styles of wrestling with rule sets that are mushy at best. Half of the certified officials have very little idea what they are doing (I don't blame them, I'm thankful they step up and do it. My gripe is with a very complicated rule set that takes years or a lifetime to master). During this two month stretch, USA Wrestling promotes national level folkstyle tournaments.
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erbooster
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This is a big problem younger kids have a hard enough time learning the rules, but if a coach is confused we are in real trouble.
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Tiny Tornado
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Chinggis
Mar 31 2013, 10:02 AM
Yesterday at Eastview, they announced a new rule change for the pushout. I never determined where it came from, USAW, MN USA, or was it a tournament director decision?

For those not in the loop, they basically made a pushout worth a point the first time, and each successive time a caution (eventually resulting in disqualification) - if it is determined the offensive wrestler was intending to push their opponent out of bounds instead of natural wrestling aggression.

Either way, the same action should not result in both a positive and negative result. I have a lot of issues with the current rule set, but adhoc changes in the middle of the season are ridiculous.

We have two months to teach two different styles of wrestling with rule sets that are mushy at best. Half of the certified officials have very little idea what they are doing (I don't blame them, I'm thankful they step up and do it. My gripe is with a very complicated rule set that takes years or a lifetime to master). During this two month stretch, USA Wrestling promotes national level folkstyle tournaments.
There are changes to the rules coming, but no formal decision has been made. The decision is not
ours, its not USA Wrestlings, its FILA's decision, which we will abide by, due to FS and Gr being
International styles of wrestling- there is a post on themat.com forum regarding the most
recent proposal -if you read it, keep in mind its only a proposal at this time.
EDITED:

The rule changes coming will most likely be changing the way a push-out point is awarded.. So the decision
was made at the Eastview tournament, by the MnUsa Head Mat Official, to try a different approach,
so the wrestlers can adjust and get it in their head to find another way to score.
So they made it a caution if there was a second push out, if I understand it correctly.
This is NOT a 100% formal rule change-just a way for the officials to get the wrestlers to think
about scoring in the middle of the mat-which is what they should be doing anyway, imo-

Just a suggestion; if you request a Rules Clinic in your area, they may be able to schedule one-it is
always best to have everyone on the same page. I am going to assume that there will be a rules clinic
preceding the start of most, if not all, of the remaining tournaments this season.

Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 1 2013, 01:29 PM.
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Chinggis
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I know where the rules are made, but any rule change should have a grace period before implementation (which I think is the usual SOP). I understand tournament day changes by the head official if it is regarding a safety issue - but to make a change based on a recommendation that may or may not come to fruition, I don't get that.

Let me also be clear - I know the rules. Our issue as a community is officials. Even if they know the actual rules, it takes a lot of practical experience to change your focus of attention from control based scoring to exposure based scoring. You cannot just take a folkstyle ref and teach him the rules and expect results.

These are the types of things that make it difficult to build a grass roots program in the spring.
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miket
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I sure do wish rules changes were announced the season before.
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CropDuster
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This is why it is incredibly difficult to sell new kids to FS/GR. How's the kid supposed to enjoy (let alone compete) with rules and rule changes and interpretations taking over 50% of the match.

Your athlete scores more points and does everything asked of him, but the other kid hit two special moves and had a push out, but only the first counted, and your athlete fell over backwards, but he didn't follow said athlete so it's worth 1 point, but it's Saturday and the sun is shining... So, the other kid wins. I'm over-exaggerating, but my point still remains. It is entirely too confusing.

It's hard to sell to kids when coaches and officials struggle to understand/interpret the rules. People wonder why wrestling got booted from the Olympics? It doesn't help when you're basically wrestling against the rules. Nobody wants to watch that.
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Tiny Tornado
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Chinggis
Apr 1 2013, 08:45 AM
I know where the rules are made, but any rule change should have a grace period before implementation (which I think is the usual SOP). I understand tournament day changes by the head official if it is regarding a safety issue - but to make a change based on a recommendation that may or may not come to fruition, I don't get that.

Let me also be clear - I know the rules. Our issue as a community is officials. Even if they know the actual rules, it takes a lot of practical experience to change your focus of attention from control based scoring to exposure based scoring. You cannot just take a folkstyle ref and teach him the rules and expect results.

These are the types of things that make it difficult to build a grass roots program in the spring.
I see your point, BUT....it is my understanding that the meeting to take place where these rules are
are to be discussed is in May ? So, our kids going to Regionals, National tournaments, and Fargo during the
months of May, June, July, August had best be in line with any changes coming - i can only imagine
the frustration that must come from trying to coach wrestlers in a style with unclear rules. Hang in there. ;)

As far as our Junior wrestlers, these weekend tournaments dont qualify them for anything They are just
practice tournaments. . So my advice to them or their coaches/parents would be, just go and wrestle-
the rules situation will become more clear going forward.
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 1 2013, 01:38 PM.
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Chinggis
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Here is where I presume the changes came from:
http://uswoawrestlingofficials.com/USWOA_PDFs/2013_General_Mods_for_both_Styles.pdf

I found this from a poster on thematforum.com. Searching the difficult home page of USWOA I found the link.

Lots more than just the pushout BTW, especially Greco par terre.
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Tiny Tornado
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Sorry, i dont know how to post links-the front page of theMat.com has on open letter
from Rick Tucci, regarding how the rules will be interpreted, beginning in Vegas and going forward....
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MNUSA Wrestling
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Rick Tucci - President U.S. Wrestling Officials Association - How the 2013 FILA wrestling rules will be called

http://themat.com/section.php?section_id=3&page=showarticle&ArticleID=26328
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ivanputzke
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Well I'm sure glad they simplified things. :blink: My god.....no wonder folkstyle is expanding in the U.S. and Freestyle and Greco are declining. And god forbid things get physical in a physical sport. What a joke. I used to think that Freestyle would make you a better folkstyle wrestler, especially on the feet. I'm not so sure anymore. On the surface you could argue that it may even slow your growth as a folkstyle wrestler. Time will tell I guess.
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Tiny Tornado
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We should stop calling these "new" rules....these are the same rules we have had, but they
are being tweaked-they aee being applied more aggressively, with penalties...
For example: pushing someone backwards out of bounds with two straight arms is NEGATIVE wrestling-
youre supposed to always work to stay in the middle of the mat, not away from it. So these rule tweaks are
meant to get things back the way they were intended originally- another example;
the rule about not grabbing the fingers has always been there, but was not as aggressively penalized,

People were shocked to see the international refs slapping the hands of the wrestlers during the olympic
matches, the wrestlers know theyre not supposed to grab and pull fingers but do it anyway....
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 15 2013, 08:46 PM.
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ivanputzke
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Tiny Tornado
Apr 15 2013, 08:36 PM
We should stop calling these "new" rules....these are the same rules we have had, but they
are being tweaked-they aee being applied more aggressively, with penalties...
For example: pushing someone backwards out of bounds with two straight arms is NEGATIVE wrestling-
youre supposed to always work to stay in the middle of the mat, not away from it. So these rule tweaks are
meant to get things back the way they were intended originally- another example;
the rule about not grabbing the fingers has always been there, but was not as aggressively penalized,

People were shocked to see the international refs slapping the hands of the wrestlers during the olympic
matches, the wrestlers know theyre not supposed to grab and pull fingers but do it anyway....
Tiny, they did nothing to improve Greco or freestyle in my opinion. I'm sorry you didn't like my post but it's the truth. Folkstyle is rising in popularity and freestyle and greco are declining. They do not resemble what they were even 20 years ago.

You can't get heavy on the head, you can't grab hands...basically you can't hand fight or get physical. These rule tweaks wouldn't be neccessary if they didn't bastardize the sport from what it was. Go back to three periods running score. Go back to the passivity zone. Go back to 9 minute matches. You want more offense?? Start rewarding offense and not defense. The guy that starts the takedown shouldn't be penalized because the defensive wrestler was able to somehow expose the offensive wrestlers back while exposing his own, and even though the offensive wrestler completes the takedown.

I need someone to talk me down from the ledge. Tell me how these rule changes help a folkstyle wrestler who is a phyical wrestler?
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Tiny Tornado
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Well, first of all, im not sure why we should care how International wrestling rules should benefit a folkstyle
Wrestler ? ^o) JK ! - for the record, I UNdisliked your post, after reading it again, I get your point -
im not defending these rules-im not fond of them either-im just pointing out, there really
not "brand new" , at least since the LAST change, which was, oh hell, what year was that anyway ? :'(

- i began watching greco and fs intently back in 2003, 2004 ? Because my son wrestled and to be
perfectly honest, i dont remember what the rules were back then. Once he began competing at the Sr level in 2007
then I just tried to stay abreast of any changes, and it seems there were lot of them -too many changes in the
past 5 or 6 years, the worst was the freestyle clinch-BUT-that was necessitated by corruptness among mat
Officials, so......we shall see what the future brings, heh ?
Greco involves chest to chest contact, trying to pummel in and get a body lock in order to throw,
not slamming down on someone's head, neck and ears, or twisting their fingers off-
Im ok with penalizing that stuff-Freestyle i dont watch very much, all that leg-grabbing just looks so wrong, ya know ? :$

As far as giving points for back exposure ? Hell yes, because international wrestling trumps folkstyle-
but thats just ME - i cant argue and dont want to argue styles, etc with anyone-i just want to enjoy
wrestling, in all its forms, and not have it taken away at the Olympic level- Id also really like to see a set
of rules that promotes and rewards agression, and wrestlers, coaches, and fans can understand
and appreciate.
As far as folkstyle gaining in popularity ? Yes, in the US and Canada -internationally ? Um, no....
But wrestling is wrestling, i understand you want to appreciate and enjoy ALL of it - so we agree on that :)

Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 15 2013, 11:21 PM.
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ivanputzke
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Now that Folkstyle is accepted by FILA I would say that Folkstyle is gaining popularity. It's just another form and with that more opportunities for wrestling. You are beginning to see wrestlers from other countries competing in the U.S. in folkstyle. They are entering our Universities. You are seeing examples of that in the NCAA tournaments. There were a couple of Russian Freestyle National place winners competing in Iowa for folkstyle nationals. It is gradually expanding internationally.

Yes, I appreciate all forms. I'm just feeling that freestyle is getting less and less transferable to folkstyle. Especially now if you can't even hand fight and work the head without the official slapping your hands. I hope I'm wrong.

You said this.."Id also really like to see a set
of rules that promotes and rewards agression, and wrestlers, coaches, and fans can understand
and appreciate."

I couldn't agree more!
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fgw
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First-you can be heavy on the head, just can't club the head
don't stall, stay in bounds, and wrestle. Pretty simple to me
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LJG
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ivanputzke
Apr 15 2013, 10:21 PM
Tiny Tornado
Apr 15 2013, 08:36 PM
We should stop calling these "new" rules....these are the same rules we have had, but they
are being tweaked-they aee being applied more aggressively, with penalties...
For example: pushing someone backwards out of bounds with two straight arms is NEGATIVE wrestling-
youre supposed to always work to stay in the middle of the mat, not away from it. So these rule tweaks are
meant to get things back the way they were intended originally- another example;
the rule about not grabbing the fingers has always been there, but was not as aggressively penalized,

People were shocked to see the international refs slapping the hands of the wrestlers during the olympic
matches, the wrestlers know theyre not supposed to grab and pull fingers but do it anyway....
Tiny, they did nothing to improve Greco or freestyle in my opinion. I'm sorry you didn't like my post but it's the truth. Folkstyle is rising in popularity and freestyle and greco are declining. They do not resemble what they were even 20 years ago.

You can't get heavy on the head, you can't grab hands...basically you can't hand fight or get physical. These rule tweaks wouldn't be neccessary if they didn't bastardize the sport from what it was. Go back to three periods running score. Go back to the passivity zone. Go back to 9 minute matches. You want more offense?? Start rewarding offense and not defense. The guy that starts the takedown shouldn't be penalized because the defensive wrestler was able to somehow expose the offensive wrestlers back while exposing his own, and even though the offensive wrestler completes the takedown.

I need someone to talk me down from the ledge. Tell me how these rule changes help a folkstyle wrestler who is a phyical wrestler?
There is a lot about GR and FS rules that I do not like, but these emphasis areas (I don't think they are all new rules as such) are good things as far as promoting action, scoring, and rewarding the offensive wrestler. GR should not be about hand fighting and head control (that's the point of the emphasis I think). One of my favorite MNUSA officials was working Maple Grove and he explained it very well to me; all made sense (sorry can't recall his name: shinny on top, if that is a clue).

As far as FS, there is nothing in the emphasis areas that stops someone from working from ties, controlling the head, and scoring off of arm control.

As far as not promoting aggressive offense, holy xxxx, I would guess that all champs this year in our HS sections were GS/FS wreslters; the aggressive offense those styles teach was certaintly on display in that tournament. In my opinion, wrestling GR/FS is how they learn it; these rules/emphasis areas won't change that.

As far as this statement goes:
"The guy that starts the takedown shouldn't be penalized because the defensive wrestler was able to somehow expose the offensive wrestlers back while exposing his own, and even though the offensive wrestler completes the takedown."

I agree...my son wrestled in a SD tournament a couple of weekends ago and the main official there was saying this was soon to change to only score for the offensive wreslter. Think it is 2013 Fila FS rule #2. Anyone know; implemented yet in MN?
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Swift
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I watched some old FS matches on youtube, (smith, brands, cross....) and I saw that conditioning used to actually be a factor and was much more fun to watch than today's FS. Today is all about getting a one point lead and riding out the period. I feel like this doesn't help result in the more aggressive wrestler winning or even the better wrestler winning many times.
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Tiny Tornado
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exactly....so, why do people still want to complain about adjustments to the push-out rule ? :blink:
Edited by Tiny Tornado, Apr 17 2013, 01:08 PM.
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Swift
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i personally don't mind that pushout rule... when you push a guy out you should benefit, and as for the guy that just tries to push you out the entire match, I feel that his bulling tactic can be beat with some good old slick technique if you are better.

The main problem with FS is the winning each period... in a 2 min period it's not that hard to stall a minute if you get a one point lead... now stalling 5 minutes to keep a lead is a whole different monster
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minnesotamatrat
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Swift
Apr 17 2013, 02:24 PM
i personally don't mind that pushout rule... when you push a guy out you should benefit, and as for the guy that just tries to push you out the entire match, I feel that his bulling tactic can be beat with some good old slick technique if you are better.

The main problem with FS is the winning each period... in a 2 min period it's not that hard to stall a minute if you get a one point lead... now stalling 5 minutes to keep a lead is a whole different monster
I have a different perspective on the three periods scoring.

You mentioned stalling for 5 minutes to keep a one point lead. That isn't the kind of match I want to watch.

When the score resets after the first period, it forces the leading wrestler to score again if he wants to get the win. So now when a wrestler has a lead, he can play defense for a short while, but he knows that he's going to have to go back on the attack at the start of the second period.

In my mind, the current format completely eliminates what I refer to as a "one-move match" that you see often in college. Both wrestlers take their escapes, and someone finally finishes a takedown late in the third period or overtime. Depending on the wrestlers and pace of action, this can be a tense, exciting match, or it can be a snoozer.

Like any system, it isn't perfect. I'm not crazy about the clinch, but it sounds like the goal of these new interpretations is to cut down on the number of clinches. Hopefully that works, as the claim from the European championships stated.
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