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| Complaints about Freestlye and Greco; It will never be Folkstyle | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 1 2013, 12:43 AM (4,400 Views) | |
| Dewey | May 1 2013, 12:43 AM Post #1 |
Super Fan
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In recent years there seems to be a lot of complaints about rule changes, bracketing, and every thing else about the international disciplines. People think that if the sports were more like folkstyle and easier for them to follow, more inexperienced high school kids would stick with it. Some cite this as a contributing factor to the recent Olympic decision. I think it should be pointed out that Folkstyle is the number one thing detracting from our competetiveness on the international level. USA wrestling has always followed the international standard, Freestyle and Greco are international sports. Folkstyle is far from it, even if it gets the attention in this country. There is a learning curve, and can be frustrating, but refusal to assimilate and keep up with the ever evolving sports because you are old school or grew up on Folkstyle does not help the USA become more competitive or help the Olympic fight. In our state, now more than ever, you can either learn to wrestle FR/GR or get left behind, just look at the summer activity of nearly every state champ every year. It is fine to talk about what you would like to see different, but USAW will always follow FILA, you have an infinitely better chance at getting the MSHSL to change. If it is unfamiliar, familiarize yourself. Bad attitudes wont make us a stronger country at the world level or make you a better coach or wrestler. They are different sports. They always will be. Learn to teach and compete in them. |
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| erbooster | May 1 2013, 04:39 AM Post #2 |
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Fanatic
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Wow that was a very bold statement. I agree that greco and freestyle are international but to say we have to always follow fila is wrong. Follow the money the US could impact fila by not competing in their tournaments. Would this help probably not but it would send a message.IMO. Also very difficult to teach it when it changes every 2 hours.jk |
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| Tiny Tornado | May 1 2013, 05:27 AM Post #3 |
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Tiny Tornado
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No....I disagree FILA is one area where the US is not in charge, nor do we have as much influence as some think we should- Sometimes we Americans don't like sports where we dont rule :-/ this may be one of them Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 1 2013, 05:28 AM.
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| CropDuster | May 1 2013, 07:17 AM Post #4 |
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I would think that it isn't just the folkstyle contingent that doesn't enjoy the rules. I've talked to plenty of people that are pretty versed in the summer styles that also don't completely buy that they are the best FILA can do. I don't think most want it to be folkstyle, and I will 100% agree that there is a learning curve that can be frustrating, but when you compete in a sport in which you can win a match without scoring a single offensive point, how can't you be frustrated? The interpretations and frequent "changes" are what get to me, personally. Always seems situations are changing to "award the aggressor" when in reality, their enforced in a way that seems to slow action down. That kinda went everywhere, but as a coach, it's rough to push these rules onto new kids. I think people understand that we have little choice in the matter, but dang. These rules can be rough. That being said, there are still a million good things to teach in the intl styles that are forever useful in folkstyle, so I never buy the "their completely different sports" excuse. Always compete, but let's not act like the rules are optimal. |
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| Chinggis | May 1 2013, 08:02 AM Post #5 |
Wrestling Fan
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I also don't want want to turn Freestyle into Folkstyle. I'm a huge fan of the core concepts of Freestyle. The packaging of those concepts into best of three periods with criteria or ball-grab clinches for tie breakers I do not accept. I would venture to guess that the rest of the world doesn't accept it either if you listen carefully to FILA Interim President Lalovic. You are completely wrong to assume the the US doesn't have any say in the affairs of FILA. The "F" in FILA stands for Federation. USAW is part of that federation and one of the largest and most powerful of that group of 174 national federation. Our own Stan Dziedzic is a Vice President and top assistant to Lalovic. We can't make dictatorial changes to our sport, but we do have a strong voice in the matter. |
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| Dewey | May 1 2013, 08:19 AM Post #6 |
Super Fan
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Fair points. I guess more often than not the complaints I hear seem to be coming from people who have had little exposure to the styles, but thats not always the case. The rule changes have become terribly frequent as of late, but as Tiny said, we don't really have a choice in the matter. Since the sweeping changes that came around 2005ish (three periods, push outs, etc.) it has become clear that FILA is going to constantly experiment with new rules to promote different kinds of action. There are always loopholes now that require midseason changes in interpretation and result in new rules the following year. I understand the gripe, but FILA is bigger than us, and a more unified FILA worldwide is a stronger sport and probably less susceptible to getting booted from the olympics. I have just come to accept that that is the way it is going to be. Expecting everyone else to do the same is unrealistic, but the best way to be successful at it is to try your best to keep up. Its hard for beginning wrestlers, but once you learn the par terre turns and basic scoring, the yearly modifications become less and less dramatic and more of a matter of match strategy. Edited by Dewey, May 1 2013, 08:43 AM.
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| Chinggis | May 1 2013, 08:46 AM Post #7 |
Wrestling Fan
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I know we may not all agree on rules and structure of tournaments, but I assume we would all like the following: * Spring clubs in all areas of the state for kids to train and learn * An full schedule of Freestyle and Greco tournaments throughout the state * The numbers at those tournaments maxed out with wrestlers * A beginner track for older first or second year wrestlers (similar to Folkstyle) * Our parents and youth coaches all competent as officials in both styles I may be completely wrong, but I think the following would help put us on this path: 1) Pressure USAW and FILA to change matches back to cumulative scoring. I think this will probably happen anyways, but I think it is still important to pursue. 2) Let's leverage a bracket structure that everyone knows and can easily understand (especially from a new wrestlers/parent) perspective. They already have to adjust to different rules, let's make the structure more familiar. It doesn't change the actual wrestling. This also simplifies the promotion of a tournament. If you don't need a trained team to manage the pairing process, that is one less barrier for hosting a tournament. 3) Encourage more local clubs to offer a Freestyle/Greco training season. The regional clubs are nice, but they remove the incentive of local clubs to offer a season. New wrestlers are less inclined to go to the regional clubs and therefore the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This should come from USAW regional and state liaisons and the state organizations (and other club coaches). This could be a combination of outreach and development of a toolbox for clubs. 4) Encourage USAW and the USWOA to provide more training opportunities for new officials (hold periodic webinars and enhance the existing web based tools). I also think an officials license should be subsidized by USAW. Officials are too important to put up any barriers to entry. Let's make the individuals investment consist of training and not $. 5) Streamline the communication of new rules and interpretations. USAW has all of our e-mail addresses. As soon as they know of a change or revised interpretation, they should be communicating that to every member that has "Freestyle" or "Greco" checked as a style preference. If we use a business analogy, our existing pool of wrestlers can be grouped as "Existing Customers" (already wrestle the intl styles and will continue), "Hard Leads" (interested, have tried competition or is interested), and "Soft Leads" (only wrestles folkstyle and thinks the word "caution" is the same as "warning"). Right now, I feel like we only market the intl styles to "Existing Customers" and everyone else is told to either assimilate or enjoy your spring and summers off. |
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| Dewey | May 1 2013, 09:07 AM Post #8 |
Super Fan
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Great post. I know my original post came off a little exclusionary. When I said assimilate, I was referring to keeping up with the rules as they are going to continue to change no matter what. I don't think the rules are what are limiting participation, but rather many of the other things you pointed out. There is undoubtly a rich get richer system in place. The soft leads will always be soft, but the hard leads are often guys that don't live in the Metro and even if there are good coaches in their area there is nobody for them to train with. It may already exist, but there should be some literature explaining basic scoring in laymans terms for parents and more and longer pre-tournament officials clinics. The rule changes can be communicated better, but unfortunately there are always slight modifications in interpretations throughout the year as problems or loopholes arise. Ultimately the problem isn't the rules its the communication of them and the amount of people who really know them. I sometimes mistake frustrations as resistance. You are right, more accessibility will create more participation and happier wrestlers, coaches and fans. |
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| CropDuster | May 1 2013, 09:26 AM Post #9 |
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My least favorite call is placement on bottom. You will never convince me that dinging a kid caution and 2 for bridging out of bounds is justified. It shouldn't completely be on the bottom wrestler to stay in bounds, as they are more or less defending any offensive attack from the top wrestler. The top wrestler is allowed to drag them out of bounds (or my less-favorite, picking up the bottom wrestler and dropping him out of bounds for 1... seen it happen at least a dozen times), but if the bottom wrestler bridges and ends up with his forehead hitting out of bounds, they get a "fleeing" call or whatever it's considered. Got one of those this weekend at Jr's... Completely understood that it was a rule, and I'm not complaining that it was enforced. I'm complaining that that is what we're worried about, as a rule. 6 pt tech fall from a feet to back throw (3), the hold in exposure (1), and a caution and (2) for bridging, as bottom wrestler ended up out of bounds. No single attack should be able to completely end a period, other than a 5-pt throw, in my opinion. Little things like this irk me. |
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| Captain545 | May 1 2013, 12:03 PM Post #10 |
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In my opinion, if we want to promote Freestyle and Greco, we need to have the MSHSL allow high school coaches who coach the Olymipc styles, to work with their kids over the summer. It's a shame to see kids and qualified coaches sit out for the summer because they don't want to jeopardize the high school season. |
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| LJG | May 1 2013, 12:38 PM Post #11 |
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The new FILA leadership may be more open to the what the US has to say, but the old certainly was not. In fact, based on comments I have heard from people like Gable, the Peterson brothers, Jim Gruenwald, etc., I got the impression that FILA infact gave limited stock to what the US had to say. The old FILA leadership is why Olympic wrestling is in jeopordy. If they had listened to the US more, I would think the situation would not be so extreme, because the rules, which hamper fan interest and participation in the sport, would not be what they are now. The recent USA Wrestling magizine make reference to a US commitee headed by Dan Gable that will make recomendations on rule changes to FILA. It will be interesting to see what they are, or maybe some of you know already? |
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| Chinggis | May 1 2013, 12:40 PM Post #12 |
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+1 |
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| Tiny Tornado | May 1 2013, 12:51 PM Post #13 |
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Its been tried-the mshsl was approached with the concept that, since they were not allowing kids to be coached in fs andgreco, y the coaches willing to work with them over the summer, regardless if they were a HS coach or not, that their Olympic dreams were being squelched and it was intefering with the training they needed to be an Olympic hopeful....it fell on deaf ears, and the mshsl said they cannot make exceptions, otherwise every sport will want one-swimming, diving, track.....where do you draw the line ? Wrestling is not really special in that regard, other sports have olympic hopefuls too and as far as HS, they are under the same rules.... |
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| Chinggis | May 1 2013, 01:19 PM Post #14 |
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I agree that USAW has not always taken a leadership role in FILA. Look at Terry Brand's recollection about a conversation he had regarding the current rules. He was told (I'm paraphrasing), "we don't want to rock the boat - it will cause us trouble at the Worlds". Now he's wondering why that would stop us from letting people know what we think. That passive approach is part of the reason we are in this situation. We've sat by idly and let FILA drain our sport of it's soul. This is why I think USAW needs to be shaken up. John Bardis recently spoke highly of Bender's leadership in ousting Martinetti from FILA, where was that leadership before?? I feel like we need to push our national organization to act in the best interest of the sport. We can't unilaterally make changes, but if they are not moving when action is needed - we need to form coalitions with other states to force the issue. |
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| pari234 | May 1 2013, 02:13 PM Post #15 |
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What would you think about rule changes to folkstyle - like getting rid of riding and riding time, and perhaps giving exposure points for exposing your opponents back to the mat. Then you would be a little closer to freestyle rules without totally jeopardizing all of the folkstyle rules. |
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| Dewey | May 1 2013, 07:57 PM Post #16 |
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This is exactly my point. They are separate disciplines. They do not need to be alike. Changing things to make it an easier transition from what you first learned is not the answer. Educating yourself on how international wrestling works is the answer. I know there are people who have been around Freestyle and Greco for a long time that still don't like the frequency of rule changes, but since it went to three periods years ago the annual adjustments are not that large. If you hold the high school season at a much higher value than summer wrestling then you are not likely to take the time it takes to be a student of the international styles. The kids and coaches that are successful in the summer are the ones that do. It is okay for the styles to be different. As long as you accept that they are and that it takes a while to get the hang of international. Once you get it down the rule changes are really not that hard to keep up with, so long as you stay current. The tradition of Freestyle and Greco go back millenia, not the case with Folkstyle. They don't need to change to be easier to understand, you just need to put the effort in. |
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| LJG | May 2 2013, 07:34 AM Post #17 |
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Yes! I like this perspective. While there are some weird rules in need of changing these styles are still a blast to watch and according to my son just as much fun as folk to wrestle. Things might need changing but that does not negate the value of participation for our kids or the enjoyment of watching. |
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| Chinggis | May 2 2013, 08:13 AM Post #18 |
Wrestling Fan
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Potential good news on the rules front (at least from my perspective :)
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| 1/3 HalfNelson | May 2 2013, 08:14 AM Post #19 |
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these days, they don't even have to wrestle... just give everyone a 1st place medal, pat them on the back, and tell them they all are champions. That's the OBAMA SOLUTION |
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| lmbulldog | May 2 2013, 08:33 AM Post #20 |
Wrestling Fan
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I think 2yrs in a row at fargo my son got the champion 1st match or runner up.this was for both styles.no luck at all on the draw.But he said the prep and everything else that went with fsgr he never would have placed at state in folkstyle. without it |
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| Sharkey | May 2 2013, 09:03 AM Post #21 |
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Fantastic
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This is true. I was at a tournament three weeks ago and they called all the kids in from the staging area. Then they announced that everyone had won first place! A huge cheer went up and then they wheeled in a big cart with hundreds of huge trophies. They had all sorts of colors so that kids could pick their favorite. Then they introduced The President. He came out in a traditional Kenyan outfit, shoke all the kids hands and handed them their trophies. Then they served everyone ice cream and handed out $500 welfare checks to all the parents. It was awesome! We are definately going back next year. |
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| Tiny Tornado | May 2 2013, 09:04 AM Post #22 |
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Tiny Tornado
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WHAT ? where did that come from ? Please, this has been a great discussion, void of politics.....until now :'( I dont even want to know what that was supposed to mean, because Id like this discussion to continue unpolluted....... Carry on, gentlemen....... |
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| Tiny Tornado | May 2 2013, 09:05 AM Post #23 |
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Tiny Tornado
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Not even funny-guess Im outta here Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 2 2013, 09:06 AM.
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| easy2 | May 2 2013, 09:27 AM Post #24 |
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It seems like the same people that bitch about politics in all levels of amatuer sports and the damage is is creating are okay to come on this forum and inject the drivel above. Not only hypocritical but kind of pathetic! |
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| Sharkey | May 2 2013, 11:53 AM Post #25 |
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Fantastic
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I guess something can only be absurd if enough people take it very seriously. :) |
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| 18576 | May 5 2013, 03:45 PM Post #26 |
Fantastic
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| WrestleMe | May 16 2013, 05:30 AM Post #27 |
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Fantastic
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You are funny. |
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| mndak | May 16 2013, 08:17 AM Post #28 |
Fantastic
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+1. Hillarious!!! |
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| Tiny Tornado | May 16 2013, 09:39 AM Post #29 |
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Tiny Tornado
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Please stop encouraging him :ermm: Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 16 2013, 09:40 AM.
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| cwillaert | May 16 2013, 09:56 AM Post #30 |
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Fantastic
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Starting with the quote from cropduster. This is exactly what we see quite often in college and sometimes in HS. The scoring of a match being nothing but escapes or riding time. I don't consider those to be offensive points. Just like the ball draw is seen more often at the open level than it is at the HS level. There has been stuff published since this topic was started regarding rules. I'm fairly certain we will see a return to cumulative scoring and going back to two 3-minute periods. bridging out of bounds...that's also a risk of wrestling on the edge of the mat which FILA obviously want to see. And quite frankly, you're on your back...why should going off the mat save you? I really thought FILA was moving in the right direction on things until late last week when I saw that they may be recomending the addition of 2 womens weights at the cost of 1 mens weight in each style. We only have 7 men's weights right now...that's down from 10 as recently as 1996 and 8 as recently as 2000. We have had 7 weight classes for 3 Olympic cycles (2004, 2008 and 2012) and now they want to cut again. I have no problem with the addition of women's weight classes but just like Title IX, I hate that it's going to come at the expense of the men. Think about those weight classes for a second. In 1996 there were 2 weight classes that are lower than the current lowest. There was 48 and 52kg and now our lowest is 55kg. That year 74kg was a weight but there were 4 weights above it instead of the current 3. 1996 weights: 48, 52, 57, 62, 68, 74, 82, 90, 100, 130 2012: 55, 60, 66, 74, 84, 96, 120 And now they want to drop another one? At the rate they're going, pretty soon we will be down to light, middle and heavy for weights. They added a bronze medal at each weight because they wanted more medals given out and more countries getting them. Now I do understand that more countries are going to medal if you only let 1 guy from each country per weight and have more medals per weight and less weights but wouldn't it make more sense to go back to 1 gold, 1 silver and 1 bronze and add a weight? Ok, I'm going to stop for now. I'll start going off on more tangents than I already have. |
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