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| Complaints about Freestlye and Greco; It will never be Folkstyle | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 1 2013, 12:43 AM (4,401 Views) | |
| mndak | May 16 2013, 11:35 AM Post #31 |
Fantastic
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1 question. Since we are going back to 2 3 minute periods are we completly eliminating the clinch? Wouldn't a 1 minute tie breaker with first point scored make more sense. Especially if they are hanging onto the pushout rule. You could follow the tiebreaker with a 20 second par tare (similar to the folkstyle double ot) if the score is still tied? |
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| cwillaert | May 16 2013, 02:17 PM Post #32 |
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Fantastic
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From Jason Bryant's article about new rules: Well, it’s back, with a slightly different way of dealing with it. In the past, a wrestler would be hit for passivity if the official felt their wrestling wasn’t real action, or as the proposal calls it a “feigned attempt to waste time.” The first passivity will be met with an attention. The second passivity call will result in the offending wrestler being “put on the clock.” A 30-second clock will then continue along with the match clock. As our contact on the FILA bureau described it, it’s essentially a shot clock. The wrestler who was hit with the penalty has to score in that 30 seconds or they will get hit with a caution point. If either wrestler scores during that 30 seconds, the points will stand and the “shot clock” will go away. Unlike the previous rules prior to 2004, there is no clinch if a match is scoreless after the first three minutes. Why? There will be a forced passivity call two minutes into a scoreless period. Obviously, if there’s no scoring in that 30 seconds from either wrestler, a caution point. |
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| cwillaert | May 18 2013, 03:31 PM Post #33 |
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Fantastic
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Well, we have new rules and apparently they start tomorrow...or Monday. Will be interesting to see if USAW adopts them immediately and follows them for all the age group stuff this summer. |
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| KJO | May 18 2013, 05:30 PM Post #34 |
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I hope not for at least this year since this would be a change mid season. Not sure I agree that this rule change is needed under the JR age levels as I saw plenty of scoring in Greco today. I thought the MN USA officials did a great job in getting wresltlers to engage in creating activity on the mat. |
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| cwillaert | May 18 2013, 09:18 PM Post #35 |
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Fantastic
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If they are willing to change internationally at this point in the year I see no reason why they wouldn't follow it domestically as well. The US Open was a few weeks ago and WTT's are a few weeks away...if they're gonna make those guys change I can see it being implemented at all levels right now. |
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| mndak | May 19 2013, 07:43 PM Post #36 |
Fantastic
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I have to agree, wrestling is wrestling. I can only see wrestling 2 3 minute periods instead of the previous 3 2 minute periods as the only major adjustment for our current cadets/juniors. The first few times you wrestle 3 minutes it may seem like a long time, but at the national level every wrestler should be in good enough shape to smoothly make the transition. The rest of the rules were modified and currently used in some form of another. Take the kid down, turn him, and stay inbounds and most will not have troubles with new rules (or should I say transition back to the old rules) |
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| cwillaert | May 20 2013, 03:32 PM Post #37 |
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Fantastic
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After seeing a little of yesterdays action, reading a lot about it and a few texts from people that were there I would be very surprised if they don't go to the new rules at all levels immediately. |
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| Tiny Tornado | May 20 2013, 07:46 PM Post #38 |
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Tiny Tornado
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CW, you mean at the Senior and probably the University level, right ? Somehow sending kids down to Northern Plains only two wks from now with a new set of rules seems like the wrong thing to do ? But, then again maybe Im not giving the kids enough credit here.... :-/ Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 20 2013, 07:47 PM.
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| thedudeabides | May 20 2013, 10:08 PM Post #39 |
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Man of the Year
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I think folkstyle is the closest thing to pure wrestling, I.E. wrestling for the sport of wrestling. Freestyle and greco are too technical and complicated compared to folkstyle. If you ask me, it's the International community who needs to wake up and evaluate. You want to talk about "old school" thinking, there's nothing "older-school thinking" then international wrestling. Look at what it's gotten them. No offense to the freestylers and greco wrestlers out there, but being rewarded for sitting on your belly is not exciting to me, and it's boring to the non-wrestling fan. I will agree with many of you, freestyle and greco have their high points. I can appreciate being rewarded for "degrees of difficulty" on a throw. That's fun. However, the foundation of folkstyle wrestling is much more exciting to watch and easy to understand, and is the closest thing to the basic foundation of actual WRESTLING. If you added the throwing element to folkstyle, along with degree of difficulty, there would be no arguements. It amazes me that folkstyle isn't demonstrated in the slightest in other countries, even on a trial or showcase basis.
Edited by thedudeabides, May 20 2013, 10:09 PM.
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| Tiny Tornado | May 20 2013, 11:10 PM Post #40 |
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Tiny Tornado
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" being rewarded for sitting on your belly....." :blink: if that's the best explanation you can offer to what's commonly known as "par-terre defense", then you've obviously never done it, and have no appreciation for just how difficult it actually is- Edited by Tiny Tornado, May 20 2013, 11:13 PM.
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| KodiakCoach | May 21 2013, 02:27 AM Post #41 |
Fantastic
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After watching some of the matches U.S, vs Russia with the new rules - they are definately moving in the right direction. Lots more scoring, more offense and rewards and a wrestler has a much better oportunity to come from behind (which fans love in every sport). A 1-2 point lead is nothing because a takedown or tilt immediately eliminates or overtakes it. I would like to see the out of bounds scoring return to where if the action starts in bounds and continued out, it would be scored. That way instead of a pushout, many times a 2 point takedown would be awarded at edge. Getting rid of the clinch was huge in creating more action. |
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| miket | May 21 2013, 09:55 AM Post #42 |
Super Fan
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ParTerre defense is an art, the details are subtle but it is far more involved than sitting on ones belly. |
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| Iowan@heart | May 21 2013, 10:55 AM Post #43 |
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Fantastic
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So here's the question I had - can the wrestler who isn't on the shot clock be called for passivity during the 30-second "shot clock". I would assume that it would be possible otherwise it would be a silly 30-second game of hide and seek on the mat. So what happens when the non-shot clock guy gets dinged for stalling? Does the clock switch to him or are there two clocks running (like hockey penalities). I would also hope that wrestlers can get dinged for a third caution during the 30-second shot clock. |
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| KJO | May 21 2013, 11:41 AM Post #44 |
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Officials and Coaches, This is to answer the many questions I got this weekend about the new rules. As of 5:00pm Monday, 5/20/13 no decision has been made by USAW as to when we will adopt the change. However, my gut feeling is that it isn't a matter of if we will change this summer it's just a matter of when. The USAW Kids Council and Coaches Council will make that decision sometime this week. A number of considerations will go into that decision. * Giving coaches time to adapt the rules in the practice room. Notice I said coaches not kids. They adapt quicker. * Letting officials adjust to the rules buy allowing tournament clinicians develop a teaching strategy. *Allowing TrackWrestling time to adjust software to accommodate the changes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvhJEC6aZNY This is a link to some YouTube video of competition in Los Angeles the day after the new rules came out. They implemented the changes and from what I can see fairly successfully. Wrestling is wrestling, a takedown is a takedown (except it is now worth 2 points), a turn is a turn, a pin is a pin, and if you do more of these than the other guy ……. you win. Some words of advice: Coaches - if you go to a competition in the near future, sit in on the officials rules meeting. It is the best way to find out about the new rules. Don't assume. Officials - myself and Casey Goessl are putting on an OEP (Officials Education Program) the day before the Northern Plains Kids tournament in Waterloo. We will focus on the new rules. Sign up for it even if you have been to a OEP before. USA wrestling will put you up in a room the night before the meeting. Sign up by contacting John Heyman at this email address uswoaoffice@verizon.net and simply say "John I would like to attend the OEP in Waterloo" and send your name, category, and officials number. Good Luck and as soon as I hear anything different I will let the MNUSAW membership know as soon as I can. Thanks for all you do for kids and wrestling, and will see you on the mat, Tom Kuisle - MNUSAW Mat Officials Director |
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| KJO | May 21 2013, 12:08 PM Post #45 |
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So will every mat have it's own shot clock for each wrestler? Will this need to be operated by a seperate person during the match? Unlike basketball where you have a clear offensive and defensive player, in wrestling this would be much more difficult to determine in certain situation who is being the passive wrestler or would this only be used if clearly there was one wrestler more aggresive? |
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| Bernie | May 21 2013, 01:37 PM Post #46 |
Wrestling Fan
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During the Cadet/Junior practice at Augsburg last night the kids were informed that the new rules will be in effect at FILA Cadet / University Nationals this weekend in Ohio. |
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| JohnnyD | May 21 2013, 01:56 PM Post #47 |
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After watching United 4 Wrestling, I must say, I like what I'm seeing. The "shot clock" thing sounded pretty suspect to me at first but basically it just acts as a second chance for the person getting dinged for passivity. If you stall (are passive), then you have 30 seconds to make up for it. I kinda like it. Eliminating the clinch was so unbelievably necessary, I cannot believe it lasted as long as it did. The clinch has always bothered me. Cumulative scoring, I think just makes things simpler for a casual fan to understand, so I support that too. I'm sure some things will still need to be tweaked but hopefully its only that from here on. They really need to ride out these rules for a few years.
Edited by JohnnyD, May 23 2013, 07:41 AM.
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| cwillaert | May 21 2013, 03:42 PM Post #48 |
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Fantastic
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I realize a couple people have already replied to this but I would like to see you sit on your belly and defend anything. The reason that scoring is pretty fast and furious at the youth level is that the kids don't know how to defend and many do try to just lay there. There's a heck of a lot of work involved in defending from the bottom. Riding time points are so exciting to watch being earned. |
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| goingtotheexcel | May 21 2013, 04:24 PM Post #49 |
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It only comes into effect when the official warns a wrestler for passivity. |
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| CropDuster | May 21 2013, 07:17 PM Post #50 |
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A few points that need to be made here: 1. Shouts out to CWill for the Riding Time comment. NOTIHNG in the sport of wrestling is more boring and unnecessary, in my opinion. 2. There is a vast difference in folkstyle and the international styles because one is exposure-based scoring and the other is control-based. You make the comment "I think folkstyle is the closest thing to pure wrestling". I've always believed that the goal of wrestling is to pin the other wrestler. You say, "Freestyle and greco are too technical" ... Dude, what is hard about exposure? You either broke 90 degrees with your back or you didn't. You were either put in danger to get pinned, or you weren't. Takedowns are also much easier to call in FS/GR. You don't have many Steiber-Oliver type last second takedowns in FS/GR that nobody can understand or make a judgement on. 3. I'll give you that the pushout rule is somewhat hard to gauge, if the competitiors are on their knees or not. I'll also concede the fact that the difference between a 2 point exposure and a 3 point feet-to-danger takedown are hard to assess. Lastly, I really really hate the 3-2 series of takedowns and counters from the feet. It's nearly impossible to understand whether or not the countering wrestler stopped the motion or changed the motion of the OFFENSIVE wrestler. This is the only thing I wish that FILA would have addressed in the new rules and it's probably the most frustrating aspect to coach/educate others about. 4. If you think everyone else in the world is going to "wake up" and decide that folkstyle is interesting or worth their time, I might label you crazy. I'll never understand America's obsession with trying to convert the world to things that we prefer. Just let it be something cool for US and if THEY become interested, they do. We should've woke up and adopted the metric system. We can let the rest of the world have their wrestling. In closing, it's not necessarily that one is more "wrestling" than the other. It kinda comes down to how you were brought up with wrestling and you're entitled to your opinion. Watch some of the matches with the new rules (United4Wrestling LA) and tell me it isn't more interesting than watching guys win 2-1 matches on a RT point. |
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| KJO | May 21 2013, 08:37 PM Post #51 |
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After watching part of the United4Wrestling LA, I say lets go ahead and make the switch now. I assume getting track wrestling to make programming changes to their system might be the biggest challenge at this point. Personally I would like to see riding time eliminated in college wrestling and adapt to more wrestling in neutral position. After watching the passive wrestlers be put on the shot clock it did create more offense from the penalized wrestler. Giving 2 points for a take down is great as it is very difficult to score at the higher levels. Two periods seems strange but makes sense with accumulative scoring. |
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| thedudeabides | May 22 2013, 05:06 PM Post #52 |
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Man of the Year
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Lot of focus in that response around riding time. The way I see riding time, it forces the bottom man to get away. I'd rather see a guy trying to ride out a wrestler trying to get away, then a guy sprawling out just trying to not to get his back exposed. OK, you can argue it's a horse a piece. That's fine. I don't like the idea of being awarded nuetral position because I didn't get exposed or pinned. To me, there's less action in that, then mat wrestling in folkstyle. |
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| cwillaert | May 22 2013, 05:47 PM Post #53 |
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You honestly think watching one guy with a spiral, crab or claw ride on another for minutes on end is exciting? Sorry but I guess we will agree to disagree. I love that in FS/GR if the top guy can't score within mere seconds they bring them back to their feet. That is where the action is. |
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| goingtotheexcel | May 22 2013, 06:12 PM Post #54 |
Super Fan
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You have never wrestled freestyle or greco have you? |
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| CropDuster | May 22 2013, 08:12 PM Post #55 |
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Dude... (I'm not about to drag out that long quote session, any longer) If you've ever wrestled against someone actually trying to score on top, in parterre, I'm just not going to be able to take you seriously. I would rather watch two wrestlers be stood up to actually engage in combat instead of someone riding solely to gain a minute's worth of time on top for a measly point (which can be taken away with the other wrestler trying to do the same thing), worth exactly one half of a blast double, low single, or a fifth of a throw to your back with a hold. Very few collegiate wrestlers actually ride to turn an opponent, but rather ride for the sake of wearing a guy out and getting a point. In the international styles, they'd rather see action and watch them wear each other out in the neutral position. I would love to see a match with two quality wrestlers that you saw a ton of action in mat wrestling (folkstyle). It's incredibly more often in the international styles (in neutral), and I think these new rules will make it even more apparent. |
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| thedudeabides | May 22 2013, 10:21 PM Post #56 |
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Man of the Year
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You're splitting hairs. I never said collegiate folkstyle was perfect by any means. Just because something is "higher scoring" doesn't make it more exciting. On the major points, here's how I rank. Back-points vs exposure - Advantage Folkstyle, clearly determined by crowd reactions. Throws - Advantage Freestyle Take-downs - One point, really? That's it. Advantage Folkstyle Mat Wrestling - There's at least some motivation by both wrestlers to wrestle in folkstyle. Advantage Folkstyle. You can rip folkstyle all you want for the minor points. Go ahead and take out the riding point. You can have it, I don't care. Even throw in a point for exposure if you really want it. Toss in a bonus for difficult throws if it's necessary. But, you can keep your monkey rolls and your lace locks. For the most part, the match structure, speed, and tempo of folkstyle are faster and more exciting. What makes folkstyle even more exciting is the team format. Edited by thedudeabides, May 22 2013, 10:22 PM.
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| Tiny Tornado | May 22 2013, 11:26 PM Post #57 |
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Tiny Tornado
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:'( it's hopeless |
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| Sharkey | May 23 2013, 06:41 AM Post #58 |
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Was that really necessary? The guy likes folkstyle, give him a break. If you don't want to discuss the topic, move on to a topic you would like to discuss. I'm enjoying the conversation. |
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| thedudeabides | May 23 2013, 07:05 AM Post #59 |
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Man of the Year
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Hey, the guy hates folkstyle, give him a break. At least I'm the only guy in this forum trying to find a median. |
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| goTigersgo | May 23 2013, 08:04 AM Post #60 |
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"I'll give you that the pushout rule is somewhat hard to gauge, if the competitiors are on their knees or not. I'll also concede the fact that the difference between a 2 point exposure and a 3 point feet-to-danger takedown are hard to assess. Lastly, I really really hate the 3-2 series of takedowns and counters from the feet. It's nearly impossible to understand whether or not the countering wrestler stopped the motion or changed the motion of the OFFENSIVE wrestler. This is the only thing I wish that FILA would have addressed in the new rules and it's probably the most frustrating aspect to coach/educate others about." This is a portion of CropDusters's post, I didn't want to quote it and make a long string. I have been watching freestyle and greco for going on 9 yrs., and I still am wrong a lot about who has scored from the feet. Freestyle has too much in common with gymnastics sometimes in that it is "judged", just my opinion. I was thinking if they only awarded points to the wrestler who ends up with control it would be less confusing. I am sure there are aspects of this that haven't occured to me. I have to give some credit to anyone who calls themselves "thedudeabides". If you like seeing wrestlers beat the piss out of each other, folkstyle is where it's at, and I think that should be part of wrestling, phyical dominance and stamina. Here's a couple of good takes on the current state of wrestling from InterMatWrestling: http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/11742 http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/11739 Try and watch the entire Karelin vs. Gardner match, I couldn't do it. I really like Foley's idea of having a country vs. country takedown tournament, it could be watched, understood, and enjoyed by the casual fan. Edited by goTigersgo, May 23 2013, 08:08 AM.
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