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2014-15 Vikings
Topic Started: Jul 18 2014, 10:09 AM (13,770 Views)
lilmatdog
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Predictions;
QB
Teddy Bridgewater, Christian Ponder
RB
Adrian Peterson, Jerome Felton, Jerick McKinnon, Matt Asiata, Zach Line
WR
Greg Jennings, Cordarrelle Patterson, Jerome Simpson, Jarius Wright, Adam Thielen, Kain Colter/Rodney Smith- I say we carry 6 as this is a pass happy league
TE
Kyle Rudolph, Rhett Ellison, A.C. Leonard
OL
T Matt Kalil, G David Yankey, C John Sullivan, G Brandon Fusco, T Phil Loadholt
G Jeff Baca, G Joe Berger, T Antonio Richardson, T Kevin Murphy- No Charlie Johnson

DL
DE Brian Robison, DT Linval Joseph, DT Sharrif Floyd, DE Everson Griffen
DE Scott Crichton, DT Fred Evans/DT Tom Johnson (only one), DT Isame Faciane DT Shamar Stephen, DE Corey Wootton
LB
OLB Chad Greenway, MLB Jasper Brinkley, OLB Anthony Barr
OLB Gerald Hodges, MLB Michael Mauti, OLB/MLB Audie Cole, OLB Larry Dean/Brandon Watts (maybe practice squad)
S
Harrison Smith, Robert Blanton, Jamarca Sanford, Antone Exum, ?Andrew Sendejo?
CB
Xavier Rhodes, Captain Munnerlyn, Derek Cox, Josh Robinson, Shaun Prater, ?Marcus Sherels?
ST
K Blair Walsh, P Jeff Locke, LS Cullen Loeffler

One of the S/CB won't be there and I expect one of the LB's won't be there either which will bring it down to 53.
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Gonzaga1603
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Curious as to what you see happening with Cassell.
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lilmatdog
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Gonzaga1603
Jul 18 2014, 10:49 AM
Curious as to what you see happening with Cassell.
I think Teddy beats him out and then between him and Ponder I don't really think there is much difference with the exception that Ponder was thrown to the wolves and he never had the chance or the coaching to reach his potential. Cassell definately had the better coaching in his early years and what you see is all he can be. Ponder can run which Cassell can't, their stats are about the same as each others about 60% completion (ponder better), about 6.5 yds per completion (Cassel better) about 177 yds a game (Ponder better) about 79 rating (Cassel better). It comes down to money, stats are really close but Ponder runs better and is cheaper.

Cassel
Ponder
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izzman
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Sorry dog but if you think Cassell is behind Ponder on the depth chart you are mistaken. Ponder does not have the presence to be an NFL QB. The reason he does well in practice and not games is he doesn't have the nerve and pocket presence needed in the NFL. I would expect he would be cut long before Cassell is.
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lilmatdog
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izzman
Jul 18 2014, 09:30 PM
Sorry dog but if you think Cassell is behind Ponder on the depth chart you are mistaken. Ponder does not have the presence to be an NFL QB. The reason he does well in practice and not games is he doesn't have the nerve and pocket presence needed in the NFL. I would expect he would be cut long before Cassell is.
And yet if you follow the links his stats are very close to Cassels. I'm not saying he is a starter but he has done well coming in to games from the bench before and without any really coaching. I think with Turner and no stress being a back up Ponder might finally become a very good back up.

If we hadn't drafted Bridgewater Cassel would have been the starter and if Teddy can't beat him out he is on the roster but I Teddy wins the job in pre-season Cassel is expendable.

I don't think you can find any threads where I have supported Ponder before, but as a back up.... I think the price is right.

I'm also not disagreeing with you that Ponder is not a starting QB, but I don't think Cassel really is either.
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dj63
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I think Cassel starts and Ponder is cut. Teddy may see the field before midseason but I think they will go with Cassel to start. At corner Sherrels will make the team, he's cheap and just signed, and can play inside or outside. Plus is a very good punt returner.
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max05
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dj63
Jul 19 2014, 02:27 PM
I think Cassel starts and Ponder is cut. Teddy may see the field before midseason but I think they will go with Cassel to start. At corner Sherrels will make the team, he's cheap and just signed, and can play inside or outside. Plus is a very good punt returner.
Good punt returner...very good is a stretch.
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lilmatdog
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I see QB Cassel, CB Sherels, OG Johnson, and MLB Brinkley all in the same boat. They didn't know who they would have or draft so they signed them all. All of them could make the team or none of them could make the team. I think they have larger contracts than others at their position and will need to out play them to stick with the team. If Cassel, Johnson, or Brinkley are not starting they need to make a case on the field as to why they should be kept.

Sherels only has 4 years, is not that expensive, a decent CB but he will not see the field in that capacity with out others being hurt, very good punt returner but they will try McKinney and Exum there I think. Maybe even Robinson.

Brinkley has 6 years, not to expensive but is not as athletic as the others. His advantage is he is a traditional middle linebacker that meets the runningbacks in the hole however he might not be versatile enough for Zimmer.

Johnson has 9 years and his better days are behind him. The Colts cut him after his best days and he has plugged a hole here sort of. We are better now with younger players getting better.

Cassell has 10 years and he is what he is. I think he was an important insurance policy for the Vikings to get back but $5 million is too much for a guy that will carry a clipboard.

The biggest knock on Bridgewater that I have heard was he was only 50% on the deep ball. I read two things that opened my eyes a little and they were 1) most 3rd reads by the QB are dump passes and the 3rd down average is 50%. 2) At Louisville the deep ball was often the 3rd read. Teddy has the talent and the smarts as he had the authority to audible at the line as a freshman in a pro set offense, I think he wins the job.

Having said all that, training camp hasn't even started yet and there always seems to be a surprise or two. I just want to put my crow on the plate before it even started. BTW, most articles I have read have the Vikings keeping 3 QB's without even offering and opinion that they might go with 2 so this is probably a moot point, just summertime fodder for thought.
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stickemagain
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Cassell and Ponder do have similar stats. But the TEAMS offense was run much better under Cassell, He moved the ball much better and gave this team a much better chance to win. Ponder might be an NFL backup at best... I think the higher level coaching Cassell received earlier in his career seperates him from Ponder at this point.

Also who would you rather have grooming a rookie Cassell or Ponder??? Cassell!!

LMD I like reading your analysis of this team as it is very thorough and usually accurate for the most part...but to say Ponder belongs on any NFL team over Cassell is crazy! If this was the Twins they might cut Cassell because they are cheap; but the Vikings arent a save money first franchise..
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lilmatdog
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I agree that Cassel had far better coaching whereas Ponder has had virtually none. I am projecting that without the pressure of starting and with good coaching for the very first time in his career that Ponder will also improve this preseason.

I obviously have nothing to base that on right now outside of the reports that say Ponder played as well as Cassel at the end of OTA's where they were crucifying him early in the OTA's. Perhaps coaching was already kicking in?

No, I don't have a strong argument for cutting Cassel, more of a projection of improvement for Ponder, Bridgewater winning the starting job, and........ yeah, not much. :'(
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Gonzaga1603
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stickemagain
Jul 20 2014, 04:19 PM
Cassell and Ponder do have similar stats. But the TEAMS offense was run much better under Cassell, He moved the ball much better and gave this team a much better chance to win. Ponder might be an NFL backup at best... I think the higher level coaching Cassell received earlier in his career seperates him from Ponder at this point.

Also who would you rather have grooming a rookie Cassell or Ponder??? Cassell!!

LMD I like reading your analysis of this team as it is very thorough and usually accurate for the most part...but to say Ponder belongs on any NFL team over Cassell is crazy! If this was the Twins they might cut Cassell because they are cheap; but the Vikings arent a save money first franchise..
I don't think there is any evidence of any of the statements that you made in this post. The offense was basically the same with Cassell as it was without him. Only real difference was Patterson an you can hardly claim that either qb was responsible or any part of his season.

Cassell has not proven that he can groom anyone. He is about 5 times more expensive though. NFL has a salary cap. It's not about being cheap or not it's about using a chunk of cap space on a backup his maybe marginally better than a cheaper you get option.
Edited by Gonzaga1603, Jul 21 2014, 07:34 AM.
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grappler6
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Even players stated the offense meshed better with Cassell on the field. Jennings being one of those players. Didn't Cassell play in every win we had?
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grappler6
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sidenote-not saying he is great, just a superior option to Ponder.
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Gonzaga1603
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grappler6
Jul 21 2014, 11:42 AM
Even players stated the offense meshed better with Cassell on the field. Jennings being one of those players. Didn't Cassell play in every win we had?
Ok well the stats didn't really show that. Offense may have "meshed" better but they statistically weren't really much better. So like the "eye test", I take what a player, who knows who is going to be the number 1 option for the rest of the year, says with a grain of salt. What's he supposed to say?

You know that bringing up wins is a dumb argument.
Edited by Gonzaga1603, Jul 21 2014, 11:47 AM.
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Gonzaga1603
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grappler6
Jul 21 2014, 11:42 AM
sidenote-not saying he is great, just a superior option to Ponder.
I think they are basically equal. Ones just cheaper, younger and has a better ceiling.
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izzman
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he is more than marginally better than Ponder. Lets not kid ourselves. Look at Greg Jennings games with Ponder as the starter and as Cassell as a starter and you will see just how much better of a QB Cassell is. I am not saying Cassell is a great QB, but he is a 10 times better game time QB than Ponder is. Ponder is always being touted as being a great practice field QB and looks great, but then you get him on the field and he crumbles.
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lilmatdog
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izzman
Jul 21 2014, 11:54 AM
he is more than marginally better than Ponder. Lets not kid ourselves. Look at Greg Jennings games with Ponder as the starter and as Cassell as a starter and you will see just how much better of a QB Cassell is. I am not saying Cassell is a great QB, but he is a 10 times better game time QB than Ponder is. Ponder is always being touted as being a great practice field QB and looks great, but then you get him on the field and he crumbles.
I think both of them will only be a back-ups, I am banking on the fact the new coaches and less stress of not starting might allow him to get past his mental hang ups.
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grappler6
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Gonzaga1603
Jul 21 2014, 11:45 AM
grappler6
Jul 21 2014, 11:42 AM
Even players stated the offense meshed better with Cassell on the field. Jennings being one of those players. Didn't Cassell play in every win we had?
Ok well the stats didn't really show that. Offense may have "meshed" better but they statistically weren't really much better. So like the "eye test", I take what a player, who knows who is going to be the number 1 option for the rest of the year, says with a grain of salt. What's he supposed to say?

You know that bringing up wins is a dumb argument.
Jennings said this last year in the middle of the coaches going back and forth between QB's.

Wins and Losses are statistics, so I think technically speaking the team was "better" with Cassell at QB based on the stat column titled Wins.

However, you are right wins are dumb. Lets put whoever out there that is least likely to win a game. Bring Kluwe back to be QB?
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Gonzaga1603
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grappler6
Jul 21 2014, 12:44 PM
Gonzaga1603
Jul 21 2014, 11:45 AM
grappler6
Jul 21 2014, 11:42 AM
Even players stated the offense meshed better with Cassell on the field. Jennings being one of those players. Didn't Cassell play in every win we had?
Ok well the stats didn't really show that. Offense may have "meshed" better but they statistically weren't really much better. So like the "eye test", I take what a player, who knows who is going to be the number 1 option for the rest of the year, says with a grain of salt. What's he supposed to say?

You know that bringing up wins is a dumb argument.
Jennings said this last year in the middle of the coaches going back and forth between QB's.

Wins and Losses are statistics, so I think technically speaking the team was "better" with Cassell at QB based on the stat column titled Wins.

However, you are right wins are dumb. Lets put whoever out there that is least likely to win a game. Bring Kluwe back to be QB?
Come on now even you don't believe that. Wins and losses are stats just not one that anyone who analyzes qb stats in a meaningful way looks at. Passing stats while not perfect are much more controlled by the actual qb. Plenty of good qbs have losing records and plenty of bad qbs have winning records.

It's like you all forget that Ponder "lead" this team to a 10 win playoff season two years ago. Oh yeah that's right? It was all AP who did that. So no credit for wins when Ponder does it but all credit for wins when Cassel gets them. Got it. Double standard much?
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Gonzaga1603
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izzman
Jul 21 2014, 11:54 AM
he is more than marginally better than Ponder. Lets not kid ourselves. Look at Greg Jennings games with Ponder as the starter and as Cassell as a starter and you will see just how much better of a QB Cassell is. I am not saying Cassell is a great QB, but he is a 10 times better game time QB than Ponder is. Ponder is always being touted as being a great practice field QB and looks great, but then you get him on the field and he crumbles.
If you look at the stats that's just not true. Basically the same attempts, completions, completion %, yards, rating, number of int, tds were like 11-7 so not much different. Cassell was a little better in most stats but not really anything more than marginally.
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Gonzaga1603
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Also as far as w/l records go, Ponder had 2 wins and a tie and Cassell had 3 wins. So, again not really much different.
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WrestleMe
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Gonzaga1603
Jul 21 2014, 01:04 PM
izzman
Jul 21 2014, 11:54 AM
he is more than marginally better than Ponder. Lets not kid ourselves. Look at Greg Jennings games with Ponder as the starter and as Cassell as a starter and you will see just how much better of a QB Cassell is. I am not saying Cassell is a great QB, but he is a 10 times better game time QB than Ponder is. Ponder is always being touted as being a great practice field QB and looks great, but then you get him on the field and he crumbles.
If you look at the stats that's just not true. Basically the same attempts, completions, completion %, yards, rating, number of int, tds were like 11-7 so not much different. Cassell was a little better in most stats but not really anything more than marginally.
Stats - Schmats........

Find me the stats that prove Kluwe is a mega D-Bag, and I'll listen. :D
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Gonzaga1603
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/18/statistical-case-against-kluwe-doesnt-stack-up/
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grappler6
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Gonz I don't feel the need to go down this road with you again over the same subject matter. You hate all Vikings QB's cuz they are all of the same ability and none live up to the great standard set by Terry Bradshaw.

I replied to ur response to stickmeagain, by stating what a player involved in the offense thought (silly me thinking that player on the team may have a better idea of the offense and team chemistry than you, my apologies) regarding which QB was better to lead the team.

grappler out
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Gonzaga1603
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grappler6
Jul 21 2014, 03:06 PM
Gonz I don't feel the need to go down this road with you again over the same subject matter. You hate all Vikings QB's cuz they are all of the same ability and none live up to the great standard set by Terry Bradshaw.

I replied to ur response to stickmeagain, by stating what a player involved in the offense thought (silly me thinking that player on the team may have a better idea of the offense and team chemistry than you, my apologies) regarding which QB was better to lead the team.

grappler out
Sounds good. I actually don't hate all Vikings qbs. I was basically just responding to the statement regarding team chemistry. While they have liked Cassel better or meshed with him more, statistically it wasn't much of a difference.

If you didn't know their names and looked at the numbers (including age and salary) you would choose to have Ponder every time. It's the same crazy hype over MBT when we cut him or Webb in the playoff game. Everyone just wants the backup because the starter is the easy target.

Do I think Ponder is a legit starting qb in the NFL? No but he is probably the best backup in football and is cheap and young.
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Gonzaga1603
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I also don't see us getting rid of any of the three honestly. Cassel will either be 1 or 2 on the depth chart with Ponder 3rd.
Edited by Gonzaga1603, Jul 22 2014, 06:21 AM.
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WrestleMe
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Gonzaga1603
Jul 21 2014, 01:29 PM
Can you provide a statistical analysis on the statistician who drowned in a lake with an average depth of 6 inches?

:D
Edited by WrestleMe, Jul 21 2014, 05:23 PM.
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Gonzaga1603
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I don't know what that means but really any way you look at his stats his 2012 season wasn't really any worse than any other year he had. Not saying he didn't get cut for being expensive but his production didn't really slip.
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stickemagain
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You need 2 good quarterbacks in this league or you have none even if the backup is a little more expensive..

Christian Ponder as a QB in this league is laughable. I actually think other teams laugh at us for keeping this guy as a legitimate QB option. What happened to the previous coaching staff that insisted Ponder was their guy?? All have been fired, and have taken demotions in their current job if they found employment...

I'm just glad some of you don't work for the Vikings organization as you would be following those guys right out the door...

Ponder is a bottom tier backup in this league a wouldn't start a game in this league for any other team. Except out of complete desperation...

But hey he is cheap... I can see why..
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grappler6
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stickemagain
Jul 22 2014, 07:15 AM
I actually think other teams laugh at us for keeping this guy as a legitimate QB option.
I pictured GM's and coaches circled around a big conference table laughing at the Vikings expense haha
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