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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 31 2014, 07:48 PM (944,602 Views) | |
| DWB79 | Feb 26 2018, 04:21 PM Post #4441 |
Fantastic
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As great as Pinnacle is in improving HS kids, along with some of the notable programs and their bevy of coaches (here's looking at you AV, Simley, etc)....a lot of kids from these programs seem to not improve as much in college as they have improved so much from 7th/8th grade till Sr. year when we all are aghast at how good they look at state and so forth. Some guys from outstate like Steinhaus, Volkmann, Elzen (among others) have done quite well. Maybe Gliva, Jones, and Bergeland will have great careers...IDK. But the Carlson's are farm boys from Steinhaus's neck of the woods. They won the Xmas tournament and I think they have even more room to improve the the other three....plus I like the idea of keeping them home and creating competition. Jones didn't impress me last year and hasn't set the world on fire as a redshirt this year...I think we can all agree that 3 and 4x State Champion's are not a guarantee that they will be super studs at the next level... Especially with the dilution of the current 3 class system. As I said on the other thread, this 22 year experiment should be done. If the MSHSL and Coaches assoc. gave even two craps about the sport they would demand a return to the 2 class system. Money shouldn't be the overriding factor. One of these nights I will go through the 3 classes and put teams into approximate sections and see how they look...but the way it is now, the dilution of talent is sad. Lots of sections having 7-10 kids at most per weight!? Every section should be much closer to 16 teams/kids per weight... Edited by DWB79, Feb 26 2018, 04:27 PM.
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| true future | Feb 26 2018, 06:43 PM Post #4442 |
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Fantastic
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So even though the Carlsons do not have the credentials of Jones/Gliva/Bergland they are thought of as better recruits because they are farm boys? |
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| TheWombat | Feb 26 2018, 08:06 PM Post #4443 |
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Fantastic
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Correct, the thought being that if they were able to accomplish so much without access to top-flight training, they have that much more room to grow when they're exposed to it. |
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| true future | Feb 26 2018, 08:33 PM Post #4444 |
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Fantastic
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Carlsons are in a very good high school program and wrestle through the spring and summer at Fargo, duals etc. They already wrestle like college wrestlers. Not saying they won't improve in college but it is not like we are talking about some diamond in the rough with huge untapped potential. |
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| izzman | Feb 26 2018, 09:07 PM Post #4445 |
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Fantastic
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Not to mention both of their dads wrestled for the Gophers. |
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| DWB79 | Feb 26 2018, 09:37 PM Post #4446 |
Fantastic
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Yep. Carlson's also have shown they can hang with the elite of the Metro--when they won the Xmas tournament and I have a feeling they might put the hurt on some guys this weekend. Even though they might have done some good summer wrestling, they haven't spent the last 6 years wrestling the best of the best at Pinnacle, yet they beat guys that probably have been there a lot. Gliva has 6 losses this year---that is one sign I'm not convinced he's a true blue chipper who will start for the Gophers. Bergeland had 7 over the course of his last two years---better than Gliva even though he won only one title. He's been less than dominant. Jones was never near as dominate as some other "blue chippers". He's one of these Multi-state champs that has benefited from the 3 class system. We'll see if his college career is as good as people think it will be. I wouldn't put any money on him being an AA. |
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| MNRodent | Feb 26 2018, 09:40 PM Post #4447 |
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Fantastic
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Exactly. Their dad's have groomed them. I'm a farm kid and I have never bought the argument that rural kids have more upside. It's genetics and work ethic that make D1 athletes have success. |
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| true future | Feb 26 2018, 10:22 PM Post #4448 |
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Fantastic
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So no pinnacle in high school is a positive as a recruit? Because besides being outstate I don't see much a difference in the Carlsons vs Jones/Gliva/Bergeland as far as recruits go. I don't think anyone on here has been proclaiming Jones as the next coming, but to say he was a beneficiary of a three class system isn't giving him enough credit for what he did in high school. He was a 9 time Fargo AA I believe. Not to mention he won one of his titles over Carlson. Assuming Carlson wins a title this year, three of Jone's four state titles will have been over guys who were state champs themselves. I'm sure that has almost never happened. Edited by true future, Feb 26 2018, 10:28 PM.
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| kodonald | Feb 26 2018, 11:07 PM Post #4449 |
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Super Fan
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Kodonald thinks Dusty (DWB69) is a meathead! Edited by kodonald, Feb 26 2018, 11:08 PM.
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| DWB79 | Feb 27 2018, 12:25 AM Post #4450 |
Fantastic
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So no pinnacle in high school is a positive as a recruit? Because besides being outstate I don't see much a difference in the Carlsons vs Jones/Gliva/Bergeland as far as recruits go. I don't think anyone on here has been proclaiming Jones as the next coming, but to say he was a beneficiary of a three class system isn't giving him enough credit for what he did in high school. He was a 9 time Fargo AA I believe. Not to mention he won one of his titles over Carlson. Assuming Carlson wins a title this year, three of Jone's four state titles will have been over guys who were state champs themselves. I'm sure that has almost never happened. I don't know if the Carlson's are can't miss prospects for D1, I think they'd bring a different element to the U wrestling room and I think they have more room to grow then the group you've been mentioning. If they go to the U we will be able to compare their careers as "apples to apples"...Personally, I think they could/will be better. I may be wrong, I want to see how they look this week, but that is what my gut tells me. I'm not saying everyone at Pinnacle are bad prospects or worse then out-state prospects, just saying that Pinnacle helps guys get way better in HS--that is why most AAA champs could beat a lot of A and AA guys that don't get that training. Just saying that schools like AV, Simley and Pinnacle kids are NOT locks for being D1 studs just cause they have had great HS careers. They improve so much in HS, there is less room to improve in college it appears. Jones was a very good HS wrestler, but everyone who has common sense knows that the 3 class system is watered down. In 1997, Chad Erikson won his 4th state title for AV. He was a beast at 130. He was the 5th guy to win that many titles, since then 19 have won 4 or more including 6 that have won 5 and one illegitimate 6 timer (Hall should have one of his titles and whole seasons of matches stripped due to a repeated 7th grade year---nobody else gets "redshirt" years in HS, the MSHSL is feckless and never should have let that happen). The number of 3 time state champs, I think has probably doubled as well. I will check the state tournament book, but I think there were only like 18-25 or so before 1997, but after I'm assuming there is probably 50-60 since then (including at least the 19 more that have 4 or more). Love MN wrestling, but time to make winning titles in MN a bit harder and give them more status...2 class system makes more sense in every way but the "money" factor. Edited by DWB79, Feb 27 2018, 12:26 AM.
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| true future | Feb 27 2018, 06:22 AM Post #4451 |
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Fantastic
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When you say the Carlsons will bring a different element to the UofM room, do you mean different then another recruit or different then anything they have in that room currently? |
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| Dairyman06 | Feb 27 2018, 07:34 AM Post #4452 |
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In no way are the two comparable. The talent level of kids now is vastly different than 20 yrs ago. |
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| CentralMNWrestle | Feb 27 2018, 07:35 AM Post #4453 |
Wrestling Fan
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It seems like most of you are unaware that that both Clay and Cael spend some time at pinnacle in the spring as well... |
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| true future | Feb 27 2018, 07:45 AM Post #4454 |
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Fantastic
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Well there ya go. Stock on them must be down now right? |
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| bison | Feb 27 2018, 08:11 AM Post #4455 |
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Super Fan
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What people also have to remember, just because you train at an elite club (Pinnacle) or go to a top school program doesn't mean you are going to excel. There are plenty of kids that dont want to work hard, rely to much on there talent.They dont have to work hard because they are the stud in the room. Once they get to college though, they're in a room full of studs. Yet there are plenty of others that are willing to put in lots of extra time. Like everyone else, the Carlson's are going to have to go where ever they think they can excel. The Gophers staff is not going to get everyone to buy into what they teach and train. Some top recruits are not going to get better. Yet some lesser talented kids are going to over achieve because they will be willing to out work others and buy into the training. |
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| poorwrestler | Feb 27 2018, 08:14 AM Post #4456 |
Super Fan
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Between 141 and 149, the gophers currently have 12 guys on the roster. Just throwing that out there.
Edited by poorwrestler, Feb 27 2018, 08:16 AM.
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| dragonfire | Feb 27 2018, 10:01 AM Post #4457 |
Super Fan
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141 to 149 having 12 guys is pretty normal. I remember one year that our team had 8-9 157 pounders alone. |
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| Gopher187 | Feb 27 2018, 10:24 AM Post #4458 |
Fantastic
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And none of them are good enough. You wanna win championships or get participation trophies!? You literally have to get a star at every weight to compete with the top 4. Edited by Gopher187, Feb 27 2018, 11:29 AM.
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| poorwrestler | Feb 27 2018, 11:25 AM Post #4459 |
Super Fan
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I’m not disagreeing. I’m just saying there’s a major imbalance on the roster right now. Just seems weird. |
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| huntfishwrestle | Feb 27 2018, 01:20 PM Post #4460 |
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Fantastic
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I think the trajectory of the Carlson boys is what tells me they have more upside. And also the way in which they are winning. They both destroyed their opponents in the finals of the Rumble. They seem to be getting better and I feel they have not peaked yet. I am also a firm believer that farm boys (especially Dairy farm boys) outwork city boys any day, which is another indication of their ability to improve! Just my 2 cents.
Edited by huntfishwrestle, Feb 27 2018, 01:21 PM.
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| DWB79 | Feb 27 2018, 01:33 PM Post #4461 |
Fantastic
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Be careful ;) .kodonald and true future will come after you for believing some outstate kids might have a higher ceiling then some of the city boys.....for the record I agree with you on your points. |
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| ivanputzke | Feb 27 2018, 01:42 PM Post #4462 |
Fanatic
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I don't think it has anything to do with outstate and city kids to whether they have a higher ceiling or not. Give me a hungry hard working kid that loves to wrestle, those kids have a ton of upside and they live all over the place. Plenty of examples of kids from both outstate and city that no longer have the passion and the work ethic........ |
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| true future | Feb 27 2018, 02:02 PM Post #4463 |
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Fantastic
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Can you elaborate on the trajectory? Both were state finalists last year, one the year before as well. They are hardly coming out of nowhere. Have been very good for a long time. Long story short they are very good wrestlers and I would be happy to have them as gophers, but I'm glad you just came out and said it, because the point I do take issue with is that because someone lives in a farm they automatically have more work ethic and more ability to improve once in college. I am sure there are hundreds of wrestlers around the country who work just as hard as the Carlsons, and most of them don't live on farms. |
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| true future | Feb 27 2018, 02:05 PM Post #4464 |
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Fantastic
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So the non pinnacle non year round wrestling part of your argument have been proven wrong so you have boiled it down to farm boys > city boys. That's your opinion and that's fine I'm going to disagree with that though (don't worry I'm not going to come after anyone as you stated) |
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| mndak | Feb 27 2018, 02:08 PM Post #4465 |
Fantastic
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Yes there is some minor truth to what you are saying. Pinnacle is giving these athletes the tools to succeed and grow at a faster rate than they would without the program/s. It is a great and convenient program for those who live near it. However, It is no secret what pinnacle is doing, they are providing kids with proper winning techniques/position and conditioning. The downfall of your argument is that the kids that have the drive to be elite, find the people near their communities that guide them in the same direction. They find the conditioning, they find the coaching. |
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| kodonald | Feb 27 2018, 02:31 PM Post #4466 |
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Super Fan
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Kodonald was getting after DWB68 probably more for suggesting Brent Jones was the beneficiary of the 3 class system........Kodonald could be wrong, but wasn't Jones' last loss to a kid from Minnesota other than Swiggum in the team section finals back when he was in the 8th grade? Also the whole 9x Fargo AA thing...... Kodonald would suggest that maybe whoever was at his weights in the other classes could have been the beneficiary of the 3 class system?? But then Kodonald would sound like DWB69.......... |
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| true future | Feb 27 2018, 03:05 PM Post #4467 |
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Fantastic
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Jones would have probably been a 4 time champ on a one or two class system. The AA champs at his weights were: Aldrich Aldrich Sjomeling Sjomeing Jones for sure beats Aldrich both years and I'd favor him over Sjomeling as wel. |
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| DWB79 | Feb 27 2018, 05:37 PM Post #4468 |
Fantastic
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You fail to consider that in a 2 class system it is not just the kids at his weight, he may have guys above or below him that would have moved into his weight class. If you and Kodonald don't think that many of these 3 and 4 x champs are benefiting from the 3 class system then you two are as dumb as you sound on here. The vast majority of these guys would NOT have won 3 or 4 or more titles in a 2 or 1 class system.
Edited by DWB79, Feb 27 2018, 05:38 PM.
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| going4it | Feb 27 2018, 06:02 PM Post #4469 |
Fantastic
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Didn’t one of the Carlson’s beat Sam Stuhl 1 year after Sam beat Jones in the Christmas tourney? To me that seems to show some big improvement.
Edited by going4it, Feb 27 2018, 06:06 PM.
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| true future | Feb 27 2018, 07:11 PM Post #4470 |
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Fantastic
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Oh I agree the majority would not. Simple math there. However I don't think Jones is one of those cases. Who do you have hypothetically beating him in the years he won from A or AA? |
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