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Recruits!
Topic Started: Dec 31 2014, 07:48 PM (944,601 Views)
Gopher187
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I hate when the page gets long with a bunch of quoted replies!
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DWB79
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You related to Jones or something? He didn't show that he was a dominant D1 Blue Chipper last year alone...he lost in team sections to Swiggum. True D1 Blue Chippers don't lose in a huge dual like that. True dominant D1 studs will dominate their senior years. After a 1st round TF last year, he won 6-2 against Wilson of St. Francis (a guy with 10 losses on the year), then a 5-3 decision against McSorley--a non-D1 recruit. He ended up beating a solid Carlson by the slim 3-2 margin.


On the other hand, look at Chad Erikson's Senior year--he stuck 1st opponent in :20, then pinned his kid in the 2nd round in 4:51, he then faced one of the best non-state champs MN has seen in probably the last 30 years---Thielbar and beat him 6-3. He MD'd J. Fratzke 19-6 in the finals. He was dominant.

Half of Erikson's career was in a 2 class system the last 2 in a 3 class system when AAA was still a pretty tough class....

See any difference?
Edited by DWB79, Feb 27 2018, 08:55 PM.
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true future
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DWB79
Feb 27 2018, 08:02 PM
You related to Jones or something? He didn't show that he was a dominant D1 Blue Chipper last year alone...he lost in team sections to Swiggum. True D1 Blue Chippers don't lose in a huge dual like that. True dominant D1 studs will dominate their senior years. After a 1st round TF last year, he won 6-2 against Wilson of St. Francis (a guy with 10 losses on the year), then a 5-3 decision against McSorley--a non-D1 recruit. He ended up beating a solid Carlson by the slim 3-2 margin.


On the other hand, look at Chad Erikson's Senior year--he stuck 1st opponent in :20, then pinned his kid in the 2nd round in 4:51, he then faced one of the best non-state champs MN has seen in probably the last 20 years---Thielbar and beat him 6-3. He MD'd J. Fratzke 19-6 in the finals. He was dominant.

Half of Erikson's career was in a 2 class system the last 2 in a 3 class system when AAA was still a pretty tough class....

See any difference?
Certainly not related to Jones and I have nothing to do with the Shakopee program. Never said he was as good as Chad Erickson either. (Not really sure what Chad Erickson has to do with Jones vs Carlson as a recruit to be honest)

My question was simple, yet you refused to answer it.

I had no idea saying Jones was a very very good high school wrestler and an equal recruit to the Carlsons would put you in such a tailspin.
Edited by true future, Feb 27 2018, 08:13 PM.
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Matt Ramsey
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Erikson is a good comparison being a 4x state champion with a comparable growth pattern, also going to the same college.
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DWB79
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True Future, I was trying to show the fact that Jones probably doesn't win 4 titles in a 2 class system (also, Erikson's years only had 13 weights, another way to dilute the talent)...

If Carlson goes to the U of MN we will be able to see who has the better career. As good as Jones was, I think he only wins it maybe 2x in a 2 class system at most. He wasn't as dominating as a lot of 4x-champs were and the sad thing is I don't think he has that high of a ceiling. I've seen him wrestle, not impressed with him as a "4x champ". We will see, maybe he cuts to 133 and turns into an offensive force, but I don't see it regardless of his credentials.
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true future
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DWB79
Feb 27 2018, 09:03 PM
True Future, I was trying to show the fact that Jones probably doesn't win 4 titles in a 2 class system (also, Erikson's years only had 13 weights, another way to dilute the talent)...

If Carlson goes to the U of MN we will be able to see who has the better career. As good as Jones was, I think he only wins it maybe 2x in a 2 class system at most. He wasn't as dominating as a lot of 4x-champs were and the sad thing is I don't think he has that high of a ceiling. I've seen him wrestle, not impressed with him as a "4x champ". We will see, maybe he cuts to 133 and turns into an offensive force, but I don't see it regardless of his credentials.
Again the easiest way to speculate how many Jones would have won in a 1 or 2 class system is to say who would have beat him, which you still havnt done. Cmon just throw a name out, it's not like I can even prove you wrong.

Jones might not do much in college, he was obviously very well trained in high school. But there is still no way Carlson is a significantly better recruit coming out of high school (which was my original point) unless you give a huge amount of weight to the fact that he is from a rural area, which I do not.
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grappler6
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So Jones is only a 2x champ and worse than Erickson and maybe worse than Carlson due to previous points. Glad we have that settled.
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kodonald
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Gopher187
Feb 27 2018, 07:43 PM
I hate when the page gets long with a bunch of quoted replies!
So does Kodonald...........
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DWB79
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[/quote]Again the easiest way to speculate how many Jones would have won in a 1 or 2 class system is to say who would have beat him, which you still havnt done. Cmon just throw a name out, it's not like I can even prove you wrong.

Jones might not do much in college, he was obviously very well trained in high school. But there is still no way Carlson is a significantly better recruit coming out of high school (which was my original point) unless you give a huge amount of weight to the fact that he is from a rural area, which I do not. [/quote]


Tucker S. had a very nice end to his career...took 1 loss in last two years--signed with Neb. and is currently 8-6 on the year. Could be a interesting parallel to Jones for college too.

T. Reetz was a 2x Runner-up and 1x Champ and was in Jones's class 3 of the 4 years as was Aldrich for the first 2 years of Jones' run and during his Soph. year at 120, he MD'd or pinned everyone at state. (to compare how dominate he was against his peers)

Skylar Hieronimus was a very solid guy out of class A. He's a year ahead of Jones, but won it at 106 the same year as Jones and 126 when Jones was a Jr.

Another sign that Jones was by no means a world beater, he never bonus'd his way through state---and in his last year he had the fewest bonus point wins in the 4 tournaments in which he won (1). Most years he had 2. Jones had 7 bonus point wins out of 16.

Erikson for comparison had 10 of his 16 matches in the ind. state tournament were "bonus" points including two years in the 2 class system.
Edited by DWB79, Feb 27 2018, 09:42 PM.
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MNRodent
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Why are some of you referring to "Carlson" like they are one person? Is it assumed that cousins are going to the same school?
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ivanputzke
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This entire discussion is ridiculous! Upside has nothing to do whether you live in the city or the country. Work ethic is not exclusive to being on a farm either. Upside is all about what a wrestler has done presently to what he will do in the future, and that has EVERYTHING to do with work ethic, passion, and the time they put into their craft. A lot can be said about the kid that maybe hasn't won a state title or a national championship but continues to get better and puts the time in and continues to show improvement, scores points and seems to be training all the time. That's showing upside. A kid that is a multiple state champ and wants to go to Pinnacle or MnElite is also putting in the time and can also have an upside. The key though is "PASSION"...passion for the sport is everything. It's the base for the work ethic.
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rscrowe
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Wow, it is sad to see a bunch of bitter, middle-aged men who, while hiding behind pseudonyms, are still pissed about taking fourth place in their section because of "that idiot ref" knock down a 4x-er and 9x Fargo AA based on some immeasurable stat that compares apples to tennis balls.

It's clear the Gopher coaches (as well as other BIG10 coaches) see some potential in the young man. As others have stated, hard work and determination along with work ethic play a critical role in predicting the success of any collegiate wrestler. You don't achieve the successes this young man has had without all of that.

Of course, the coaches need to recruit the best guys they can...their jobs depend on it. However, just because you won your fantasy football league's championship the last two years, it doesn't qualify you as a competent builder of D1 wrestling programs.

If you are on the bandwagon, I look forward to you moving on. If you are a true-blue, decades-long Gopher fan, let me get rid of your stress...I will buy your season tickets and any apparel you have so you don't focus on your "wasted money" while you continue living vicariously through a bunch of harder-working-than-you young men.

PM me for details on the sale.
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Happydance23
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DWB79
Feb 27 2018, 09:03 PM
True Future, I was trying to show the fact that Jones probably doesn't win 4 titles in a 2 class system (also, Erikson's years only had 13 weights, another way to dilute the talent)...

If Carlson goes to the U of MN we will be able to see who has the better career. As good as Jones was, I think he only wins it maybe 2x in a 2 class system at most. He wasn't as dominating as a lot of 4x-champs were and the sad thing is I don't think he has that high of a ceiling. I've seen him wrestle, not impressed with him as a "4x champ". We will see, maybe he cuts to 133 and turns into an offensive force, but I don't see it regardless of his credentials.
And how many titles did yoy win aswell as how many AA's in college. With as critical as you are of Jones you must have some Kyle Dake results.
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Cradleking
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Murica !!!!
We by far have the worst short and long term memory in the world.
I've heard this debate a thousand times over the decades and all it ever ends up in is, "I told you so." When in fact, neither side knows.
Watch the end of moneyball, when he is arguing with one of his scouts, they think they know the kid, they think someone is cant miss, but you never really know. You just try to make the best decision you can.

There are countless gophers that we can discuss that have been through this debate. Nate Baker, and Josh McClay were both going to be 4 x AAs
Matt Nagel, Mitch Kuhlman, Nate Matousek, Jake Short, Ben Morgan......on and on.
Then there are the kids that went elsewhere, Destin McCauley, Lance Benick, Jacob Schlottke.
Every one of the above wrestlers were 100% absolute, gotta have wrestlers. SURE THINGS.
By no means am I degrading any of these wrestlers careers. I am saying that on these boards everyone argued they were guaranteed multiple AA's and/or national champs.
Bottom line.....you just don't know.....you don't. So stop pretending, and quit with the endless bickering over semantics
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Jim Comet
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Are you sure both the Carlson families are dairy farmers? Last I knew at least one family lived IN Wilmar. I only bring this up because in todays world I am not sure how much difference it makes living in the city or country. I would guess their success is due more to their family support and personal drive/dedication and love of wrestling. Jim
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Go47
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One of the families may live in town but rumor has it they keep a Guernsey in the garage just for butter and yogurt.
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larson311
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rscrowe
Feb 27 2018, 10:39 PM
Wow, it is sad to see a bunch of bitter, middle-aged men who, while hiding behind pseudonyms, are still pissed about taking fourth place in their section because of "that idiot ref" knock down a 4x-er and 9x Fargo AA based on some immeasurable stat that compares apples to tennis balls.

It's clear the Gopher coaches (as well as other BIG10 coaches) see some potential in the young man. As others have stated, hard work and determination along with work ethic play a critical role in predicting the success of any collegiate wrestler. You don't achieve the successes this young man has had without all of that.

Of course, the coaches need to recruit the best guys they can...their jobs depend on it. However, just because you won your fantasy football league's championship the last two years, it doesn't qualify you as a competent builder of D1 wrestling programs.

If you are on the bandwagon, I look forward to you moving on. If you are a true-blue, decades-long Gopher fan, let me get rid of your stress...I will buy your season tickets and any apparel you have so you don't focus on your "wasted money" while you continue living vicariously through a bunch of harder-working-than-you young men.

PM me for details on the sale.
AMEN!
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mndak
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Jim Comet
Feb 28 2018, 09:22 AM
Are you sure both the Carlson families are dairy farmers? Last I knew at least one family lived IN Wilmar. I only bring this up because in todays world I am not sure how much difference it makes living in the city or country. I would guess their success is due more to their family support and personal drive/dedication and love of wrestling. Jim
The hard working farm kid stereotype is a thing of the past. Mechanization has made every thing way easier than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago. We aren't out there doing near the manual labor that we were in the past.

Yes farmers work hard. they have long hours, and many things aspects still involve physical strenuous labor, but no where near what was previously required.
Edited by mndak, Feb 28 2018, 10:37 AM.
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izzman
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Go47
Feb 28 2018, 09:43 AM
One of the families may live in town but rumor has it they keep a Guernsey in the garage just for butter and yogurt.
Out of this whole debate about Metro vs Outstate this is by far the best post!. The very fact that you mention a Guernsey takes the cake for me. If you grew up on a dairy farm you know exactly what that is.

Just made my day!
Edited by izzman, Feb 28 2018, 11:45 AM.
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MNWIFAN
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going4it
Feb 27 2018, 06:02 PM
Didn’t one of the Carlson’s beat Sam Stuhl 1 year after Sam beat Jones in the Christmas tourney? To me that seems to show some big improvement.
Sam Stuhl won his 4th state championship last weekend with a pin in the final. His only loss this year was to Cael Carlson at the Xmas Tournament final 4-1. That puts Carlson's stock pretty high in my book.
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MNRodent
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Where is Stuhl going to school now? I think he decomited from SDSU.
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3girlsanddad
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pantherfan84
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nvm
Edited by pantherfan84, Feb 28 2018, 01:30 PM.
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pantherfan84
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true future
Feb 27 2018, 03:05 PM
kodonald
Feb 27 2018, 02:31 PM
DWB79
Feb 27 2018, 01:33 PM
huntfishwrestle
Feb 27 2018, 01:20 PM
I think the trajectory of the Carlson boys is what tells me they have more upside. And also the way in which they are winning. They both destroyed their opponents in the finals of the Rumble. They seem to be getting better and I feel they have not peaked yet. I am also a firm believer that farm boys (especially Dairy farm boys) outwork city boys any day, which is another indication of their ability to improve! Just my 2 cents.
Be careful ;) .kodonald and true future will come after you for believing some outstate kids might have a higher ceiling then some of the city boys.....for the record I agree with you on your points.
Kodonald was getting after DWB68 probably more for suggesting Brent Jones was the beneficiary of the 3 class system........Kodonald could be wrong, but wasn't Jones' last loss to a kid from Minnesota other than Swiggum in the team section finals back when he was in the 8th grade? Also the whole 9x Fargo AA thing......

Kodonald would suggest that maybe whoever was at his weights in the other classes could have been the beneficiary of the 3 class system?? But then Kodonald would sound like DWB69..........
Jones would have probably been a 4 time champ on a one or two class system. The AA champs at his weights were:

Aldrich
Aldrich
Sjomeling
Sjomeing

Jones for sure beats Aldrich both years and I'd favor him over Sjomeling as wel.
FYI Tucker was 1-1 VS Jones beat him at the JJ and lost to him at the Rumble both close matches...
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BRM8
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mndak
Feb 28 2018, 10:37 AM
Jim Comet
Feb 28 2018, 09:22 AM
Are you sure both the Carlson families are dairy farmers? Last I knew at least one family lived IN Wilmar. I only bring this up because in todays world I am not sure how much difference it makes living in the city or country. I would guess their success is due more to their family support and personal drive/dedication and love of wrestling. Jim
The hard working farm kid stereotype is a thing of the past. Mechanization has made every thing way easier than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago. We aren't out there doing near the manual labor that we were in the past.

Yes farmers work hard. they have long hours, and many things aspects still involve physical strenuous labor, but no where near what was previously required.
The hard working farm kid thing is not a thing of the past. Yes there is more mechanization but the long hours and the work ethic is still there. That is the whole point, work ethic. Have you seen the Carlson boys even wrestle? They will out hustle and out work anyone in the gym. The boys were at our tournament this winter and after the finals they were out running the hallways and doing pushups. My 10 year old son talked with them and not only are they hard working but they are great kids. If you could get a team full of wrestlers with that kind of drive and character that would be pretty impressive.
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Happydance23
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BRM8
Feb 28 2018, 01:47 PM
mndak
Feb 28 2018, 10:37 AM
Jim Comet
Feb 28 2018, 09:22 AM
Are you sure both the Carlson families are dairy farmers? Last I knew at least one family lived IN Wilmar. I only bring this up because in todays world I am not sure how much difference it makes living in the city or country. I would guess their success is due more to their family support and personal drive/dedication and love of wrestling. Jim
The hard working farm kid stereotype is a thing of the past. Mechanization has made every thing way easier than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago. We aren't out there doing near the manual labor that we were in the past.

Yes farmers work hard. they have long hours, and many things aspects still involve physical strenuous labor, but no where near what was previously required.
The hard working farm kid thing is not a thing of the past. Yes there is more mechanization but the long hours and the work ethic is still there. That is the whole point, work ethic. Have you seen the Carlson boys even wrestle? They will out hustle and out work anyone in the gym. The boys were at our tournament this winter and after the finals they were out running the hallways and doing pushups. My 10 year old son talked with them and not only are they hard working but they are great kids. If you could get a team full of wrestlers with that kind of drive and character that would be pretty impressive.
I have to disagree....not about Carlsons being hard workers or great kids....they most likely are. But I have been hiring construction workers for over 25 yrs and 15-20 years ago it was a pretty good bet if you we hired a guy off the farm you were getting a great worker.....those times have changed. Now your just as likely to get a good farm guy as almost any where else. I do believe technology has changed this. I grew up on a farm and know what it was to 24-7 365 to have to be there and make hay when the sun shined. I wish we would go back in time to the family farms and less technology.
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mndak
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BRM8
Feb 28 2018, 01:47 PM
mndak
Feb 28 2018, 10:37 AM
Jim Comet
Feb 28 2018, 09:22 AM
Are you sure both the Carlson families are dairy farmers? Last I knew at least one family lived IN Wilmar. I only bring this up because in todays world I am not sure how much difference it makes living in the city or country. I would guess their success is due more to their family support and personal drive/dedication and love of wrestling. Jim
The hard working farm kid stereotype is a thing of the past. Mechanization has made every thing way easier than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago. We aren't out there doing near the manual labor that we were in the past.

Yes farmers work hard. they have long hours, and many things aspects still involve physical strenuous labor, but no where near what was previously required.
The hard working farm kid thing is not a thing of the past. Yes there is more mechanization but the long hours and the work ethic is still there. That is the whole point, work ethic. Have you seen the Carlson boys even wrestle? They will out hustle and out work anyone in the gym. The boys were at our tournament this winter and after the finals they were out running the hallways and doing pushups. My 10 year old son talked with them and not only are they hard working but they are great kids. If you could get a team full of wrestlers with that kind of drive and character that would be pretty impressive.
It's not the same as it used to be. As a whole agriculture is not a physically strenuous as it was in the past, its a fact not an observation.

And no I am not even referencing the Carlson boys in my comments, I don't know them nor do I care who they are. My argument is based off of the generality thrown out a few posts back.
Edited by mndak, Feb 28 2018, 03:03 PM.
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Cradleking
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dairy farming is still dairy farming....that isn't any easier..
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Go47
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izzman
Feb 28 2018, 11:44 AM
Go47
Feb 28 2018, 09:43 AM
One of the families may live in town but rumor has it they keep a Guernsey in the garage just for butter and yogurt.
Out of this whole debate about Metro vs Outstate this is by far the best post!. The very fact that you mention a Guernsey takes the cake for me. If you grew up on a dairy farm you know exactly what that is.

Just made my day!
If we haven't met, we should. If we have, reveal yourself in person. I grew up showing Guernseys as a young lad. I'm glad someone else other than me got a kick out of the reference.
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poorwrestler
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Another recruit next year that could end up being a top end 133/141 pounder is Theorius Robison, of Pomona HS in Colorado. Just won his 3rd State title as a junior and went undefeated in doing so. Flo just mentioned him in their article of top 141 prospects in high school wrestling. He’s currently not decided on a college.
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